Post by Admin on Sept 22, 2018 23:53:19 GMT
Sorry, Anonymous Facebook Debater, I didn't see this one, and I know you would probably lose some sleep if I didn't answer it, so here is an address. 
Anonymous Facebook Debater: posting Scripture isn't proving anything.
Response: So let me see if I have this straight: we don't need Scripture in order to clarify what is Biblical Doctrine or not?
From where I sit (posting) Scripture is the only Authority for Christians to settle disputes about Doctrine. Given the differing styles of interpretation, ranging from hyper literal to hyper analogy, it can be a little difficult, but, if we do not examine the Word of God and actually look at what is there...what's the point? Many secular groups have great love and fellowship, but they do not have the Word of God.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: Yes, 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about future, great. I don't think we know exactly how that look although I'm sure it'll be awesome.
Response: It speaks of the Glorified body we will receive. The Rapture is an irrefutable doctrine that teaches that the entire Church is glorified at the same time in the same event. That's not open for debate. Both the dead and the living are made alive and caught up to be with Christ. However, the Eternal State has believers...here on the New Earth and in New Jerusalem. Which is apparently a bridge between the spiritual/eternal and the physical/temporal. And I agree...it will be awesome. But just as awesome is the teaching that Christ will rule this current earth for one thousand years. It is my belief that we (Saints) will minister to men in a way Angels do now. I look very much forward to that time. We will be in glorified bodies and not faced with the limitations of our current "tabernacle."
Anonymous Facebook Debater: I'll believe ephesians 4 is a good gauge of what were moving towards. Jesus sits at right hand of God waiting for enemies to become his footstool right? Has this happened already? Not entirely as I believe were doin doin that now.
Response: In part I would agree. I believe the Restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2) is the Holy Spirit, and in particular His working through the Church. In that way we restrain evil on earth. But it is His working through us that makes it effective. He isn't curtailing abortion by bombing clinics, for example, lol.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: What do you call the judgement of 70AD?
Response: I call it what it was, persecution of men against believers, and an evil empire once again wreaking havoc. Could we view God as using the Roman Empire to bring judgment? Sure, but let's not nullify all that has not been fulfilled, or try to make the events of the first century fit the timeline of events in Revelation. It just isn't going to work. There is no close correlation of events. We do not see this...
Matthew 24:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I have read about a million Jews died, which does not even come close to the death toll for them in WWII.
Revelation teaches that one half of the population will die in that seven year period, which would be close to 4 billion people at this point. Staggering statistics. Is that "a destruction view?" Yes, but one straight from the pages of Scripture.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: When the temple and Jerusalem and the priesthood was burned in fire?
Response: As I said before, I think very possible we could make a partial fulfillment of this, just as we do Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the prophecy of the "Little Horn," but that is not the ultimate fulfillment. We see that little horn here correlated between the two texts:
Daniel 7:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Revelation 17:7-14 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Now note this carefully, Anonymous Facebook Debater, it's pretty cool: In Daniel we see ten horns on what is the "last beast" which represents the last Empire in that time. Three horns are plucked up which makes the little horn...the eighth, right?
Note also in v.14 that it is Christ, not the Church, that overcomes those that make war with Him.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: Also, why is there no mention of this historical event any where in scripture?
Response: Revelation is the last book to be penned, historically held to have been written in the early 90s. Despite Amillennials and Preterists redating it, it makes little sense for John to write about the destruction of the Temple, seeing he is recounting that which God is showing him. Seems to me it would be more logical, if Revelation had an early date some try to give it...that he would be writing about the destruction of the Temple...
...if in fact this was a future event rather than something that had already happened. Revelation is defined as to what it is speaking about:
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Anonymous Facebook Debater: And why is there no antichrist figure or 7 year trib mentioned in Revelation?
Response: The "Beast" is the Antichrist. And that Revelation corroborates Daniels Seventieth Week is there for those who are willing to actually study the book.
It's like this: no man can harm the Two Witnesses during their 3 1/2 year ministry:
Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Antichrist is also empowered for 3 1/2
Revelation 13 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
At the end of the Two Witnesses' ministry Antichrist kills them:
Revelation 11:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Note it is at the end of their ministry. Thus 3 1/2 years plus 3 1/2 years makes 7 years, which correlates to the Prophecy of Daniel:
Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now, a few things which make it clear that the Tribulation is in view is that here and in other parts of Daniel we see the Abomination of Desolation Christ speaks about. Note that in view is the Seventieth Week, the final period of seven years. Antichrist "strengthens" the Covenant for seven years (obviously a pledge, not surprising for one engaged in intrigue), which allows Temple service to take place. Now first, where in the First Century did any Emperor support the Covenant of Law (which is the Covenant in view because this was the Covenant relevant to "Daniel's People")? For 3 1/2 years, after a pledge, a treaty of seven years was enacted? Secondly, the erroneous view that "the prince to come" is Christ can be dismissed seeing that Christians (the people of the prince to come) did not in the First Century, nor will ever...destroy the City and the Sanctuary. In the first century it was the Roman Empire. In the Tribulation is will be the final Empire under the control of the Beast/Antichrist who has declared himself god.
Now, in the midst (middle) of the week (seven year period) he (Antichrist, the prince that is to come) shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease. This, again, correlates to the Prophecy of Revelation, where we see the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one, the Antichrist...coming into power.
And there, Anonymous Facebook Debater, it the Seven Year Tribulation, Daniel's Seventieth Week...in Revelation.
God bless.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: posting Scripture isn't proving anything.
Response: So let me see if I have this straight: we don't need Scripture in order to clarify what is Biblical Doctrine or not?
From where I sit (posting) Scripture is the only Authority for Christians to settle disputes about Doctrine. Given the differing styles of interpretation, ranging from hyper literal to hyper analogy, it can be a little difficult, but, if we do not examine the Word of God and actually look at what is there...what's the point? Many secular groups have great love and fellowship, but they do not have the Word of God.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: Yes, 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about future, great. I don't think we know exactly how that look although I'm sure it'll be awesome.
Response: It speaks of the Glorified body we will receive. The Rapture is an irrefutable doctrine that teaches that the entire Church is glorified at the same time in the same event. That's not open for debate. Both the dead and the living are made alive and caught up to be with Christ. However, the Eternal State has believers...here on the New Earth and in New Jerusalem. Which is apparently a bridge between the spiritual/eternal and the physical/temporal. And I agree...it will be awesome. But just as awesome is the teaching that Christ will rule this current earth for one thousand years. It is my belief that we (Saints) will minister to men in a way Angels do now. I look very much forward to that time. We will be in glorified bodies and not faced with the limitations of our current "tabernacle."
Anonymous Facebook Debater: I'll believe ephesians 4 is a good gauge of what were moving towards. Jesus sits at right hand of God waiting for enemies to become his footstool right? Has this happened already? Not entirely as I believe were doin doin that now.
Response: In part I would agree. I believe the Restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2) is the Holy Spirit, and in particular His working through the Church. In that way we restrain evil on earth. But it is His working through us that makes it effective. He isn't curtailing abortion by bombing clinics, for example, lol.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: What do you call the judgement of 70AD?
Response: I call it what it was, persecution of men against believers, and an evil empire once again wreaking havoc. Could we view God as using the Roman Empire to bring judgment? Sure, but let's not nullify all that has not been fulfilled, or try to make the events of the first century fit the timeline of events in Revelation. It just isn't going to work. There is no close correlation of events. We do not see this...
Matthew 24:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I have read about a million Jews died, which does not even come close to the death toll for them in WWII.
Revelation teaches that one half of the population will die in that seven year period, which would be close to 4 billion people at this point. Staggering statistics. Is that "a destruction view?" Yes, but one straight from the pages of Scripture.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: When the temple and Jerusalem and the priesthood was burned in fire?
Response: As I said before, I think very possible we could make a partial fulfillment of this, just as we do Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the prophecy of the "Little Horn," but that is not the ultimate fulfillment. We see that little horn here correlated between the two texts:
Daniel 7:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Revelation 17:7-14 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Now note this carefully, Anonymous Facebook Debater, it's pretty cool: In Daniel we see ten horns on what is the "last beast" which represents the last Empire in that time. Three horns are plucked up which makes the little horn...the eighth, right?
Note also in v.14 that it is Christ, not the Church, that overcomes those that make war with Him.
Anonymous Facebook Debater: Also, why is there no mention of this historical event any where in scripture?
Response: Revelation is the last book to be penned, historically held to have been written in the early 90s. Despite Amillennials and Preterists redating it, it makes little sense for John to write about the destruction of the Temple, seeing he is recounting that which God is showing him. Seems to me it would be more logical, if Revelation had an early date some try to give it...that he would be writing about the destruction of the Temple...
...if in fact this was a future event rather than something that had already happened. Revelation is defined as to what it is speaking about:
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Anonymous Facebook Debater: And why is there no antichrist figure or 7 year trib mentioned in Revelation?
Response: The "Beast" is the Antichrist. And that Revelation corroborates Daniels Seventieth Week is there for those who are willing to actually study the book.
It's like this: no man can harm the Two Witnesses during their 3 1/2 year ministry:
Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Antichrist is also empowered for 3 1/2
Revelation 13 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
At the end of the Two Witnesses' ministry Antichrist kills them:
Revelation 11:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Note it is at the end of their ministry. Thus 3 1/2 years plus 3 1/2 years makes 7 years, which correlates to the Prophecy of Daniel:
Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now, a few things which make it clear that the Tribulation is in view is that here and in other parts of Daniel we see the Abomination of Desolation Christ speaks about. Note that in view is the Seventieth Week, the final period of seven years. Antichrist "strengthens" the Covenant for seven years (obviously a pledge, not surprising for one engaged in intrigue), which allows Temple service to take place. Now first, where in the First Century did any Emperor support the Covenant of Law (which is the Covenant in view because this was the Covenant relevant to "Daniel's People")? For 3 1/2 years, after a pledge, a treaty of seven years was enacted? Secondly, the erroneous view that "the prince to come" is Christ can be dismissed seeing that Christians (the people of the prince to come) did not in the First Century, nor will ever...destroy the City and the Sanctuary. In the first century it was the Roman Empire. In the Tribulation is will be the final Empire under the control of the Beast/Antichrist who has declared himself god.
Now, in the midst (middle) of the week (seven year period) he (Antichrist, the prince that is to come) shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease. This, again, correlates to the Prophecy of Revelation, where we see the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one, the Antichrist...coming into power.
And there, Anonymous Facebook Debater, it the Seven Year Tribulation, Daniel's Seventieth Week...in Revelation.
God bless.