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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2019 15:00:02 GMT
This is a thread started on what appears to be a very large forum, but I am finding it rather slow. The topic is whether men received Eternal Life prior to the Cross:
A popular belief is that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back. I would suggest that no man received Eternal Life until God reconciled mankind unto Himself and began something brand new...immersing believers into Himself in Eternal Union.
Was any man in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was Jew and Gentile one in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was any man reconciled to God prior to the Cross?
I will start this conversation with one verse to support that Eternal Life did not begin until the Cross:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2019 14:39:21 GMT
Poster One:
It is true that no man has been glorified, which is the completion of our Eternal salvation physically, but those who are born again and immersed into God (baptized into Christ) have received eternal life:
1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As far as men being born again prior to Pentecost, I would suggest to you that no-one was born again until Pentecost, when men received Eternal Life by reason of their immersion into God and His Eternal Indwelling. I would love to have you join the discussion in a thread relevant to the specific issue of whether men were regenerated in the Old Testament Eras:
Here is a thread dealing with that. (This link is purposely omitted to maintain anonymity of posters)
But if you want to thresh it out in this thread that is okay as well, because REgeneration is relevant to whether men received eternal life in the Old Testament, and if we can see that men were not born again then, and that being born again is receiving Eternal life, then we can answer the question of the OP.
In the verse above we see that Scripture-not Abraham-foresaw that God would justify Gentiles by faith, and secondly...it is a future event and only a promise at that time. The Justification in view is not the Justification which is temporal, as Abraham enjoyed during his lifetime (which secured his eternal destiny) which was based on what he did, but that which is eternal and based on what Christ did at the Cross and through His Resurrection.
Regeneration is the receiving of life we were not born with, hence...we are born again, and this time of God. Nicodemus asks how a man can be born from above (of God) and born of the Spirit (of God) and Christ responds thus...
John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ had to die in order for men to receive the life (eternal) He came to give. We see that His Resurrection is also relevant:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
One thing I would also point out at this time is that Adam did not have eternal life, because if he did...he lost it when thrust out of the Garden, and that conflicts with the numerous texts that show that eternal life is, in fact, everlasting, so losing it would disqualify that life which is lost as "everlasting/eternal."
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 17:46:59 GMT
Poster One:
Again...
1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
We receive Eternal Life when we are immersed into God in Eternal Union. We hvae the life Christ came to bring.
Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
It can be said, and is said in numerous places.
Here are some people who had not received the life of Christ:
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Do you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Christ? What He is speaking of here is believing on His death, for the "Living Bread" and the "True Bread" is His flesh, which refers to His death on the Cross, just as He teaches here...
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Believing on Christ brings about the condition of having eternal life, and those who do will not perish.
Jesus Christ is The Baptizer:
Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is a difference between The Baptizer and those who are baptized of Him.
Galatians 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
When we are baptized into Christ we become children of God. The reason is due to being born of God:
John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This clearly shows men have already been born of God through believing on Christ Jesus, which began when Christ came, died, arose again, and sent the Promised Spirit.
You are confusing Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. Christ was not justified according to the justification foreseen concerning Gentiles, He is the Justifier:
Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Christ's Sacrifice does confirm the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, but not the covenant itself. His Sacrifice confirms the New Covenant:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
We have received the promise of eternal inheritance. Not as it was promised in the Old Testament, but in the sense of having received what the Old Testament Saints did not:
Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Agreed.
Correct. I made that point in the last post.
And we are not dead in our sins, but have been made alive in Christ:
Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2019 15:14:44 GMT
Poster One:
Eternal Life is not physical, it is spiritual. While our physical bodies will be resurrected, that doesn't change the fact that we receive eternal life when we are reconciled to God and immersed into Him, and He indwells us.
Their "lot" is in deed quite different than it was for the Old Testament Saints, who did not go to Heaven until Christ made The Atonement for their sin and reconciled them to God:
Hebrews 9:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
The entrance of men unto God was physical and only a parable (v.9). Christ is the One Who made access to God in Heaven possible:
Hebrews 9:23-24 King James Version (KJV)
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 10:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
No man comes uinto the Father except by Christ, and this based on His death in our stead.
Furthermore we see that the Old Testament saints did not receive the Promised Spirit, they were not baptized into Christ, they did not have the Gospel revealed unto them, and they were not made perfect, which in Hebrews means they were not made complete in regards to remission of sins.
It's quite evident that we have received, in our lifetime, that which the Old Testament Saints died in faith still awaiting. The Prophets knew that they were speaking of future events:
1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
There's a simple reason why: you weren't at Pentecost when He was sent.
That Christ is still baptizing men with the Holy Ghost is seen well after Pentecost:
Acts 11:11-18 King James Version (KJV)
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John the Baptist is teaching of what the Baptizer Christ would do. In view is eternal life and eternal damnation. One will be baptizsed with the holy Ghost (again, immersed into God) or they will be baptized with fire, also performed by Christ, and this is the burning up of the chaff with unquenchable fire, or in other words...they will be immersed into Hell.
Being born of the "Spirit" is the same as being born of God. This is the act, and being born again is the reslt.
And this...
1 Corinthians 15:35-49 King James Version (KJV)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
...is speaking about glorification, not Regeneration.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2019 15:32:22 GMT
Poster One:
The Justifier is Jesus, lol. You understand that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, right? Secondly, Christ is the Redeemer, and it is through Him that men are justified on an eternal basis. Third...
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
...it's just basic to our understanding of Redemption.
Lastly, I would return your attention to the original point. You spoke of Christ being justified, and again I suggest you are confusing temporal justification with eternal justification through Christ, and diminishing Christ at the same time. You said...
Not only do you fail to understand that Christ is the One Who justifies, thus we must consider that in our understanding of justification, but you also fail to understand the import of the point made in which your response addresses.
Abraham was justified, declared righteous, just as Zacharias and Elisabeth are in Luke 1:4-5, but that is not the same as being freely justified by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. So it is not I that need to reread these verses...
Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
We have received the promises. Here is an example:
John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The Old Testament Saints did not receive the promise of the Father...
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
We have.
The indwelling of God is actually how we receive the life Christ came to give. We have eternal life because He Who is Eternal dwells in us and will do so for Eternity. These are the rivers of living water seen above. We could look at all of the promises they did not receive, which we do in our lifetimes (and they at the time of the Cross), and I think it will help you to better understand eternal life..
And we are heirs, and have receive that promise as well:
Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
This is not referring to receiving the promise as in God giving it for the first time, but as in receiving what was promised:
1 Peter 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
God bless.
Note: sorry, didn't have time to add emphasis.
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