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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:51:12 GMT
This is from the Forum I have returned to after an absence, but loved this repsonse so thought I would include it:
First, let me say thanks much for the response, I appreciate the time it must have taken to prepare it. Secondly, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, but had a project I was working on and that took up a great deal of time, as well as a venture into Facebook (what a mistake, lol) which has kept me away from he Forums for a while.
I hope that in the intervening time you have perhaps had a chance to review the thread and to give more thought to this issue. As far as "Paul does talk about faith in Christ prior to Christ's coming," I agree 100%, people did have faith in Christ, however, we cannot equate faith in the coming Messiah with faith in Jesus Christ the Risen Savior. If we did, then we would have to account all Jews that are till looking for the First Coming to be within God's will, and we know the opposite is true...they have rejected Christ.
The Disciples of Christ, after having walked with Christ for nearly three years, had the knowledge that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah spoken of in Scripture, yet this did not mean they understood the Gospel, or received it. In fact...the exact opposite is true:
Matthew 16:13-23 King James Version (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
God revealed this to them. Now let's look at the revelation Christ provides, the Gospel:
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Three things I would point out at this time:
1. The Lord forbade them from telling people...He was the Christ. Ask yourself why. The reason being because the Mystery of the Gospel was not being revealed at this time. While the Gospel of the Kingdom is relevant to the Christ, it has more of a focus on the Restoration of Israel rather than the salvation of the sinner;
2. We see in v.21 that it is at this time that Christ begins to show unto His disciples...the Gospel.
3. Peter rejects the Gospel. So much that within a short time he will seek to keep Jesus Christ from the Cross by violence and murder, and when that fails he will deny he even knows the Lord.
So while I agree that there were men and women of faith in the Old Testament, we don't equate that to those who will believe on Jesus Christ after the Comforter (the One Who reveals the Gospel to the hearts of men) is sent from Heaven. Paul makes it clear that faith in Christ wasn't available to men prior to Christ's coming, and he makes it clear that is while the Law was in effect:
Galatians 3:21-27 King James Version (KJV)
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Faith in Christ was a reality, to be sure, however...faith in Jesus Christ dying for the sin of the sinner was not knowledge revealed in the Old Testament:
Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 17:05:23 GMT
Yes, they received the Promises, and "saw them" from a perspective of the future, but it remains that they did not receive the promises:
Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Abraham, for example, did not receive the blessing referred to in "In thee shall all families/nations of the earth be blessed." That blessing was through Christ the Seed, and Abraham didn't understand that. Paul states that the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, not that Abraham did (Galatians 3:8).
They had no understanding...it was hid from them, a secret:
Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Agreed. They knew God would ultimately be the Savior, but that does not equate to an understanding of the Gospel. Again, not even the disciples had this understanding until Pentecost, when the Comforter (the Promised Spirit, Ezekiel 36:27; John 14:15-23; John 7:38-39; Acts 1:4-5) is sent.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 17:34:19 GMT
You haven't understood me, lol: nothing in what I teach promotes salvation by works. I would be very curious to know what it is that gave you that impression. If you could post it I'd like to see if perhaps I stated something poorly.
However, I do very much teach that men were justified by works and even still can be. The difference being that I am speaking of Temporal Justification, not Eternal Redemption, which is our being freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Because I don't equate the justification of Abraham in with salvation as Protestants usually do in Romans 4 (but view it as an example Paul gives to show it isn't unprecedented in relation Romans 3) and Catholics do in James 2.
The Old Testament Saint was saved in the same way we are, by the grace of God. But their faith was not in the revelation of the Mystery as our own is, hence they were not reconciled to God through the Atonement nor baptized into Christ as we are when we place specific faith in Christ (as opposed to a general faith in a coming Messiah or other promises made by God). They had not received certain things we have just as we have not received our glorified bodies. Their eternal destinies were as secure as our own despite the fact that there is still more to be realized in regards to our salvation.
And "There is none righteous, no not one..."
...was written some four hundred years after Abraham was "declared righteous.
Abraham's righteousness is no different than the righteousness of these two...
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Now, if we haven't been trained to think that being justified equates to Eternal Redemption...we don't have a conflict with seeing people justified by the works of the Law. It's just a basic principle of Scripture, men were commanded to obey the Law. When they did they lived, and when they didn't they died. Even those who had not received the Law received revelation from God that they might keep the principles found in the Law:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
But it doesn't say the doers of the Law shall be saved, simply justified. And that justification is, like Abraham's, as we as Zacharias and Elisabeth's...based on what they did. Salvation, however, is based on what Christ did.
It kept them from dying, lol.
But seriously, I don't see it as a matter of their error being limited to their being in God's good graces because they kept the Law (again, that was demanded), it was more a matter that they did not learn the lessons the Law meant to teach, such as love for your neighbor. Keeping the Law doesn't necessarily create the arrogance often associated with a person that thinks they do something very well.
This is true but we must not forget that while men could not keep the Law they were no less under a burden to keep the Law:
Leviticus 18:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
It is true the just shall live by faith, but for those under the Law those that broke the Law simply did not live, because the death penalty for their sin was carried out physically.
We don't nullify God's command for them to keep the Law, nor do we exchange obedience to the Law for faith. One who had faith would in fact keep the Law. That is the "works" that would evidence belief and faith.
And just to make sure I am clear...performing those works did not save them. Men can only be saved by the grace of God.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 17:46:15 GMT
They were keeping the Law by performing those sacrifices too, lol.
But I agree, those sacrifices had to be continually offered because they could not take away sins:
Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
They could not make a person perfect (complete), but Christ's could...
Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Perfection (completion in regards to remission of sins) is one of God's promises in the Old Testament:
Hebrews 10:14-18 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
So we go back to Hebrews 11 and note that the Old Testament Saints were not made perfect:
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
They died in faith not receiving the promises and not being made perfect. We see a distinction made between the Church and those who had previously died here...
Hebrews 12:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 18:02:50 GMT
Yes.
Agreed. However, we must maintain some very basic truths such as the fact that Redemption was foretold in the Old Testament and realized when Christ came and died for men. Many think the Atonement was applied before Christ came but not only is there no Scriptural support for that we see in many places where the opposite is seen to be the case. For example:
Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Men were not reconciled to God prior to His manifestation in the flesh:
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And as I mentioned earlier they did not receive the Promises. They did not receive the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven. They were not eternally indwelt nor were they baptized into Christ.
Yes, men and women of faith...but awaiting Redemption when they died.
Paul teaches extensively on this. 1 Corinthians 1:16-2:16 speaks about this. The hidden wisdom of God is Christ and that was Mystery (an unrevealed truth):
1 Corinthians 2:7-10 King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Agreed. But they embraced that promise in a physical manner. This is why Peter tried to stop the Lord from dying, because if He died He couldn't restore the Kingdom unto Israel (Acts 1:6-7). They thought the Messiah would be a literal physical descendant of David Who would restore Israel physically. He is going to do that but that was not on the agenda the first time around.
And the Lord shows she is clueless and speaking in physical terms:
John 4:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
The Jews weren't really asking that, a Prophet of God was:
Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 18:24:57 GMT
No confusion, they simply had no understanding because it had not yet been revealed to them:
Mark 9:10 King James Version (KJV)
And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
John 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Again we see it is late in His ministry that we see Him "Begin to show" his disciples the Gospel:
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
And we see Peter's reaction to it. But Peter is not the only one that will abandon the Lord:
John 16:28-32 King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
They did not abide in Christ, but every man abandoned Him.
Only those who lived to receive the Promised Spirit would go on to place faith in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament Saints were limited in the revelation they received and some more than others. That the woman's Seed would crush Satan's head does not equate to knowledge of the Savior Jesus Christ. Only during the Kingdom years and through the Prophets do we see a more pronounced revelation concerning Messiah. We can read Scripture and see what it is Abraham believed, and to go outside of that is to add to Scripture. He did not know the Name above all names yet. He would know when Christ died and preached to the spirits in prison.
Even those expert in the Hebrew Scriptures had to be taught. Paul is the prime example and he considered all that he was before as...dung. Here's another fellow:
Acts 18:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Yes. That is exactly what happened. Men believing in false gods taught the One True God. Salvation doesn't take place because someone preaches the Gospel only, the Holy Spirit has to enlighten men to those truths. We can preach until we are blue in the face but unless God opens their eyes nothing is going to happen.
Absolutely.
Not all Jews failed to place faith in the Promised Messiah. Not all Jews failed to place faith in Jesus Christ. Paul is speaking on a National basis concerning their unbelief. They failed because they did not believe. The "Gospel" they heard in the Wilderness (Hebrews 4:1-3) was the promise of their own land in which they would have peace and provision, free from the slavery God redeemed them from...and they didn't believe it. That was the Gospel, but we understand that the Rest wasn't a piece of land, but Jesus Christ. They did not.
Again I would like to see what it is that gave you the impression that I believe anyone is or ever was saved by works.
And again, thanks for the response, I have enjoyed it.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 14:34:33 GMT
This is another response from the same poster:
Again, thanks for the response, I am always looking for womeone that is serious about discussion and willing to put in a little time and effort. I wanted to wait to respond until I could address your statements in detail.
Yes, men have lived by faith since the beginning. However, we must draw our conclusions based on the Whole Counsel of God's Word, which mean we must understand the significance of Progressive Revelation and how that impacts the understanding of men in the Old Testament.
First, I would point out that "living by faith" has a physical aspect most don't calculate into their conclusions. Simply put...men lived and died according to their faith. The penalty for sin is death, and the Law brings things to a stricter standard in that lack of faith resulted in physical death. For example, the Children of Israel died in the wilderness because they lacked faith in God's Promise. They were unbelieving. When men transgressed the Law they were physically put to death, and we have examples of this occurring by the hand of God as well as by the hand of men enforcing the Law.
Secondly, we have to keep in mind that the Gospel was a Mystery, not revealed to men, but kept secret since the world began. Paul writes a chapter and a half (1 Corinthians 1:16-2:16) on the Hidden Wisdom and makes numerous statements that also show men simply did not have the Gospel revealed to them during the Age of Law or prior to its establishment:
Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Ephesians 3:3-5, 8-9 King James Version (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 2:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
So while men and women did express faith and were justified in the Old Testament, one of the worst errors I see in Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical Soteriology is the error of equating that faith with the faith of Jesus Christ. Paul makes it clear men were not believing in Christ during the Age of Law:
Galatians 3:22-25 King James Version (KJV)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
And we see the same thing John writes in John 1, that is is when Christ came that men began to be born of God and become sons of God:
Galatians 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Prior to Pentecost Jew and Gentile were divided. Israel was in relationship to God through the Covenant of Law, and Gentiles were not, and had to become proselytes to be in relationship with Him. But after that faith in Christ is come...both are made one in Christ. And I would point out that Israel was not in Christ and that now Gentiles are in Christ too, but that both are now being baptized into Christ.
And the reason for that is because at the appropriate time God sent His Son to redeem men from the Law (and the penalty of sin):
Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Again, Israel was not in Christ, because 1) they were under Law, and 2) the Son had not come yet. That is why we call Messianic Prophecy...prphecy.
So yes, men had faith, but, men were not saved by faith, rather, they were saved by grace through faith, and that is a huge distinction. The Old Testament Saint died in faith not receiving the Promises (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40). It would not be until Christ actually died to pay the penalty for their sin that they wouls receive those promises, which is stated in Galatians 3:22 and 4:5 above.
The Writer of Hebrews distinguishes between general faith in God as taught in the Hebrew Scriptures and faith in Christ, the more perfect (complete) Doctrine of Christ:
Hebrews 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Faith towards God has been replaced with Faith in Christ.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 14:53:30 GMT
Same Poster, and I will have to forego emphasis due to shortness of time:
And so the question is, when you read that Abraham was declared righteous, do you equate that with Abraham being Eternally Redeemed?
I do not. Justification on an eternal basis is spoken of in Romans 3...
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
...and Romans 4 is Paul giving an example of precedence of someone being declared righteous apart from the works of the Law. That is Temporal Justification as we see in James 2. Abraham believed the revelation provided to Him thus secured his eternal destiny, but, he wasn't saved by his belief or faith, he was saved by grace through faith, even as we are:
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But the fact remains he died in faith not receiving the Promises:
Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The "perfection" in v.40 is "completion in regards to remission of sins." This is the teaching of the Writer in Chs.9-10. The sacrifices of the Law (and the Writer takes it all the way back to the sacrifice of Abel in Hebrews12:24) could not make one perfect (10:1-4) hence had to be repeated daily, often for the same sins. But the Sacrifice of Christ, when applied to those who are sanctified by that Sacrifice...make one perfect/complete forever in regards to remission of sins, as was promised:
Hebrews 10:14-18 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
That is what it means to be made complete, and Abraham...did not receive this, he was not made complete "without us, which throws the popular notion that the Atonement was applied to the Old Testament Saint prior to the Cross...out the window.
Nor did Abraham receive the Promised Spirit. Not even the disciples received Him prior to Pentecost:
John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
In this same verse we see some thing else Abraham did not receive...Eternal Life. One of the most basic teachings of Christ is that He came to bestow eternal life on men through His death, and New Birth, being born of God, is a result of the Cross and Resurrection itself. Nicodemus asks how one can be born from above (of God) and of the Spirit (of God) and the Lord answers:
John 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Abraham was "saved" from an eternal perspective by the grace of God, and his eternal destiny secured. But he was not eternally redeemed and his sins not forgiven on an eternal basis, and would not be until Christ died on the Cross in his stead:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Christ died so Abraham might receive the Promise.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 15:07:11 GMT
Same Poster:
I would have to disagree on both points, because what we know is important (and that doesn't change after we are saved, we are to grow in understanding of the Word), as well as what they knew (and what that accomplished), and I would view the administration of God to be by grace.
There is no faith until the grace of God is bestowed on men. And there is no faith until one believes. And one cannot believe except God enlighten the natural mind and heart. Too many hold the view we are saved by faith through grace, and that puts the horse in the cart, lol.
Whereas I view them as two literal persons created by God, and the first family. All men are descended from these two.
But let's back up and remember they expressed disbelief in their disobedience. Particularly Eve. I like to think Adam ate of the fruit because he chose to share his wife's fate out of love, and even if that were true...he still sinned.
As to believing the promise of the Gospel in Genesis 3:15 in it's unrevealed testimony, I'd agree, they likely believed it, but, that doesn't equate to them having a knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Faith of Christ. It simply wasn't given to men then, and wouldn't be until the Holy Spirit began revealing it to men.
And here is something I would caution you in: if you create a principle that men can be saved by believing a Messiah is coming, then you are forced to equally conclude that all Jews who believe the Hebrew Scripture who are still awaiting the First Coming of the Messiah...are also saved.
And we know they are not, because they are actively rejecting the Messiah GOd promised to them.
I'd agree, destined for saving faith, but not having received it yet. I believe they received the Gospel when Christ went into Hades and proclaimed the Gospel to them. I take the view no man went into Heaven at death until Christ died on the Cross, having made Atonement and brought about The Reconciliation.
Agreed. God even revealed to the disciples that Jesus was that Messiah, and the Son of the Living God...
Matthew 16:13-17 King James Version (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
...but that doesn't mean they understood what He would do...
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Agreed...after Pentecost. But we see that they didn't believe even after His Resurrection:
Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 15:21:57 GMT
Same Poster:
Right, the righteousness of God, not the righteousness of men, which disqualifies any righteousness of men based on what they do.
And Paul makes it clear that there is a specific point in time when the righteousness of God apart from the law is made manifest:
Romans 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Same thing said in Hebrews 9:15, the sins of men were redeemed and forgiven by the Offering of Christ.
As far as Jews having an advantage, they did, they received the Oracles (Word) of God, however, only the doers of the Law were justified:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
This, again, is Temporal Justification based on what men did, specifically in relation to the revelation provided to them by God. Men were declared righteous according to obedience, but this is distinct from being declared righteous based on what Christ did. Here are two other declared righteous based on the works of the law:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
But, like Abraham, they too still needed to be Eternally Redeemed.
One context is temporal, like the remission of sins achieved by the sacrifice of animals was temporal and temporary, and one context is eternal, like the Sacrifice of Christ is eternal and permanent...complete.
Note that you mention God foretold He would send the Son, and that He would come...to bring salvation.
I totally agree, for Eternal salvation began when Christ came.
No, they are not the same, because the former did not have the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel. As we see above, Gentiles who were outside of the sphere of God's Word could still...be justified. B being obedient to the Law written on their hearts and being...doers of the law. That same "Law" was written on the hearts of men prior to the establishment of the formal Covenant of Law. God has always given men the necessary revelation they needed to be saved, no matter the Age.
As far as a demand they be the same or His promises are made null and void, that isn't the case. All of the Old Testament Saints died not receiving the promises yet they were "saved" from an eternal perspective, and assured of Eternal Redemption when Christ came.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 15:38:02 GMT
Same Poster:
Agreed. We see principles outlined in Romans 1-2 that show God has always given men opportunity to come into obedience to His will. God reveals His will by the testimony of Creation, the internal witness He provides to men, and direct revelation.
but here is the thing: those people living after the Resurrection who were obedient as the Gentiles in Romans 2:13-15 are said to be...weren't baptized into Christ. While I believe men do have a hope of Heaven through obedience to the internal witness of God, I do not equate that to being in Christ through receiving the truth of the Gospel. So our goal is to preach the Gospel and see men made part of the body of Christ in this lifetime, rather than hoping they be be obedient to an internal witness of God's will. And this does not apply to those who reject the Gospel, such as Jews who are still awaiting Messiah's first coming.
Not really something that inhibited the Apostles from preaching the Gospel and pointing to the Scriptures that spoke of Christ. Peter preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost quoting the Hebrew Scriptures.
No, disbelief is not equated to rejecting Christ in all Ages:
Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
There will be a more severe punishment for those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth and Grace...than those who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law and associated revelation).
That is what I mean, we have to distinguish the difference between the revelation received in past Ages and that we have received in this Age. There is a difference, as seen here.
Agreed, however...that doesn't change the fact that the Gospel was a Mystery, the Hidden Wisdom kept secret since the world began.
There are numerous "saviors" in the religions of the world. We would witness to the Muslim the same way we would anyone else, we would preach Christ crucified and with them we can point to the Hebrew Scriptures as the Apostles did.
I'm not sure how we could be any more serious than to point out that the Holy Ghost was sent at a specific time for a specific purpose:
John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
We can preach the Word of God until we are blue in the face, and it will be for nothing if the Comforter does not open their understanding to the spiritual things of God. When He, the Comforter, came He began revealing the Mystery of the Gospel to men, beginning with the disciples at Pentecost. That is the focal point concerning the Gospel, and this is the means of regeneration, the Gospel itself.
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 15:50:29 GMT
Same Poster:
Not in the Old Testament, prior to the Gospel. They reject the Son, true, for He is Creator God, and spoke to them in the Old Testament, but, we don't equate that to men rejecting the Gospel. The first recorded man to reject the Gospel is Peter:
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Men will be judged based on their response to whatever revelation was provided to them, but, no man in the Old Testament will be judged for rejecting the revealed Gospel of Christ...because it was not revealed to them. Those who are obedient or disobedient to revelation prior to the revelation of the Mystery will be judged according to their works. I personally believe they may stand before God at the great White Throne, and they will either be justified or not.
I agree, it is the same as disbelieving God, but but not the same as disbelieving the Gospel.
Personally I take the view that even those who reject Christ believe, because we look at the principle of God enlightening the darkened mind to truth. It is inherent in man to rebel and reject, though, so most will reject God's efforts to save them.
Just not true, many were justified by their works, and those works showed their belief and faith. Abraham is the prime example. The problem is that the Protestant and Evangelical has been taught that the justification in James 2 is somehow different than the justification in Romans 4, and most have not been taught that both are different than the Justification in Romans 3. Paul wrote "...the doers of the Law shall be justified," and that is true, however...in a temporal context, not an eternal. Paul and James never say once that Abraham was saved by faith alone or by faith and works...they are both talking about Justification. When we are given a soteriological statement we see what men are saved by:
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation has always been a gift, it cannot be obtained by anything a man can accomplish...nothing. It must be given to men by God based on His grace, and that grace is through what Christ did, not the faith of men.
Agreed.
After salvation we can, because we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. But again..we aren't saved by those works. We will be judged according to them, and receive reward or loss of reward based on our works, but we are saved by grace...alone.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 16:04:57 GMT
Same Poster:
True, but the fact remains...Abraham had no clue as to Who that heir would be. We cannot nullify Paul's teaching that the Gospel was not revealed to men in past Ages.
So the idea that Abraham knew Who Jesus Christ was isn't found in Scripture. The exact opposite, however, that he did not know...is.
I have two threads looking at Justification, "Temporal Justification" and "A challenge to Catholics...and Protestants," and would love to have you join in on that.
Yes, he believed God would give him a son of his own, and bless the world through him. He believed that his wife would miraculously give birth to that son.
But he didn't believe Jesus Christ died for his sin and arose again that he might have eternal life through his sins being atoned for by Jesus Christ and reconciled to God through that Atonement.
That is actually a primary point I am making...the distinction between what men knew and received before the Cross and what they knew and received afterward.
I would agree, Peter believed in God, but it would not be until after the Resurrection, and even more pointedly after Pentecost, that Peter would believe on Jesus Christ.
Again, two entirely different things.
Many Jews today "believe what is written." Doesn't mean they are to be considered saved. I don't have time to develop this morning the fact that no man had life until they were baptized into Christ, but that is the fact. The Lord came only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, and in the Greek the word "lost" is a reference to a state of destruction, and we can impose into it the same meaning we give to the word "lost" today.
And the disciples were...lost. They were part of the Lost Sheep. In a state of separation from God and in need of Reconciliation. And that began when Christ died on the Cross, arose, and began baptizing men into Himself:
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If there is anything you see as misintepreted, please present it. I look to my brethren to test the doctrine I hold to, and that is one of the primary goals of these discussions, to test first my own views.
Yes, John prophesied of Christ's death, even as Isaiah did, but like Isaiah he did not understand the Mystery of the Gospel, because it would not be revealed prior to his death. When he was in prison, we are given insight to John's lack of understanding of Who Jesus Christ was:
Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Ever noticed that? How can he have preached that Jesus Christ would take away the sins of the world and yet not be sure if He was the Promised Messiah?
Same way Isaiah, and all of the Prophets could:
1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
God bless.
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