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Post by Admin on Mar 29, 2019 17:14:33 GMT
So a new Forum that I might bring my views to the test by presenting them to my brethren. One of my favorite topics, Temporal Justification:
The debate between Catholics and Protestants has raged for centuries over Justification. Catholics say man is justified not by faith only, but by works also, and it is hard to argue with that...seeing that they have inspired Scripture that teaches us that. Protestants would say, "But this is a temporal context, between man and man, not God and man," which is true for the large part, however, Abraham was justified by his willingness to offer up Isaac as commanded, and that is not between man and man, but between God and Abraham. That does not nullify the fact that the context of James 2 is temporal, else we must equally conclude that men can be justified in an eternal context by giving clothing to those who are cold, and food to those who are hungry.
Now here is the question that may surprise some: why would we view Romans 4 as an eternal context?
I would suggest that we cannot, but must view this passage as identical in nature to James, speaking of Temporal Justification because...the declaration of righteousness is based on what Abraham did, just as we see in James 2. It is given as an example of the Eternal Justification Paul speaks of here:
Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
And this Justification is eternal, based on what Christ did, not what we do. One might argue "But we believed!" This is true, but you would not have believed had God not enlightened your darkened mind to the truth of the Gospel. That you believe is part of...the gift.
And I would point out that despite the fact that Abraham was justified by belief, faith, and works, we can see that doesn't change the conclusion of Scripture from the eternal Perspective...
Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Galatians 3:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
And I will point out that the Scripture was given to men after Abraham was "declared righteous." RIghteous from a temporal perspective, but from the eternal perspective of God he was in the same boat as everyone else, with the notable exception of Noah.
Abraham died still awaiting Eternal Redemption, which was obtained by Christ through His death and it is that Sacrifice by which Abraham received Reconciliation and Atonement:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2019 16:16:06 GMT
You are not alone in this belief, it is held by most. However, we see a distinct difference between the Justification declared of men in Old Testament Economies and Justification accomplished by Christ. As a first text I would share this:
Romans 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Paul makes this statement on the heels of speaking about justification among men, which is temporal in the sense that the justification is based on what they do. In Romans 2:13-16 we see that it is not the one who hears (and this is directed towards Jews, who, unlike the Gentiles had received the Word of God (Romans 3:1-2) but the one who is a doer of the Law. Now we both know that this cannot be a reference to Eternal Justification because the New Testament makes it clear that men cannot be Justified by the works of the Law. Now we either have a conflicting statement in Scripture or...we have a differing context. We see in v. 10 that it is written, there is none righteous...no, not one.
But wait, doesn't Scripture also say that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed? It does, but again the context is temporal because men are not Justified on an eternal basis believing in the veiled Gospel of Jesus Christ, but justified on an eternal basis for believing on Jesus Christ. This is the only means one can be eternally Justified. Paul and James are not in conflict because both speak in a temporal context. Here is why Abraham was justified before God:
Romans 4:16-22 King James Version (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
First note the "promise" of v.16: A basic truth is that Abraham died not receiving the promises that he believed (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40).
Secondly, note what it is he is believing. While one might view belief in God's promise to make him a father of many nations and to give him a seed through which all nations/families of the earth would be blessed is a basis for Eternal Justification, I do not. Believing this and believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again are not the same. If we created this parallel we would have to acknowledge that all Jews who also believe that God will at some point in the future bless all nations/families of the earth are also justified. We would also have to view all Jews still awaiting the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures to be saved. And I know of no-one who seriously presents that as a possibility, rather, they are designated as rejecters of the Christ of the Hebrew Scriptures. Galatians 3:8 tells us why Abraham was justified, and while you and I can understand this in a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Abraham had no knowledge of God manifesting in flesh to die in the stead of the sinner.
Third, the Scripture that states "...there is none righteous, no not one" was written after Abraham was declared righteous, so Abraham is included in who is not justified. Because we know he was justified by belief, faith, and works (and in that order) we either see a contradiction or...a differing context.
Fourth, we see numerous people mentioned in Scripture who were also declared righteous but this does not nullify the fact they died awaiting the fulfillment of God's promises, namely Redemption through the Messiah. Zacharias and Elisabeth, for example, were righteous before God for the same reason those in Romans 2:13-15 were declared righteous (see Luke 1:5-6). But they still needed to be redeemed from the Law, which didn't take place until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).
Fifth, we see a contrast drawn between the fact that none were/are righteous and Justification by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Again, no contradiction between Romans 2:13-15 but a differing context. We see in v.21 "...now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested," the implication that this takes place at this time (a reference to Christ and His Work). The righteousness which is through faith in Christ which was not available to men prior to His coming (Galatians 3:23-26) as seen in v.22. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are therefore in need of Jesus Christ, and this includes Abraham.
Note that it is when God set forth Jesus Christ (v.25) that men are freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. His righteousness is declared "at this time." The implication being...the righteousness declared before was not the righteousness now being declared. And when we consider why Abraham was justified it is easy to see why Paul makes this distinction.
We need to interpret Romans 4 and Paul's statement of justification in light of Romans 3, rather than the other way around. Note in v.25 "...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past," which corresponds to numerous passages which make it clear that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the Sacrifice of Christ and not a moment before. The most notable statement that states both that Eternal Redemption was accomplished and obtained by Christ through His death and that the sins of men aforetime were redeemed by that Sacrifice is the following:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Again, Abraham died not having received the promises, and that includes the promise of Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 10:15-18) and his eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:3-4). The sacrifices he offered up obtained remission of sins and atonement in a temporal context. Only the Sacrifice of Christ obtains remission of sins and atonement on an eternal basis.
As I said, many equate the justification ascribed to Old Testament Saints as eternal, and from the perspective that their eternal destinies were secure by grace through faith we might acknowledge this in that sense. But, these all died in faith not having received these promises, nor were they made perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins: Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:10-14; Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 12:23). What we would have to see is Scripture that supports the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the Old Testament Saint as well as an explanation as to how they received this promise despite Scripture's statement that they died not receiving it.
As to whether James 2 is temporal or not, that is a little easier to show, because if we say that Abraham was justified on an eternal basis by faith and works then we must equally conclude James is advocating Eternal Justification by giving clothing to those who are cold and food to those who are hungry. This would stand as blatant contradiction to numerous statements Paul makes which makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified by works. Romans 4 and James 2 are temporal and speak about justification among men in the temporal sense, whereas when we see a statement that is soteriological...
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
...we see that salvation is by grace through faith...alone. No works. But, men are justified in a temporal sense by their works. But we have to distinguish between what is temporal and Eternal and distinguish between justification and salvation itself.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 1, 2019 16:32:37 GMT
It is a very clear statement:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
We aren't going to change the simple statements made:
1. One is not justified simply because they hear the Law (and this has specific relevance to the fact that Jews received the Oracles (Word) of God, not the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2));
2. Those who do the Law shall be justified: can we really construe this to mean otherwise? Is Scripture in error here, men will not be justified by the Law?
3. Gentiles show the Law written on their hearts (this is an internal witness and revelation from God to men outside of the sphere of the Word of God) and do the things contained in the Law. This means that they judge each other based on what is written on their hearts.
The conclusion is that if Gentiles do in fact perform the works of the Law they are doers of the Law, not simply hearers...and they will be justified.
But not in an eternal context. They will still be judged (at the Great White Throne, in my view, that is what I primarily lean to):
Romans 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
It's very simple: those who do the works of the Law (written on their hearts by God) shall be justified. But if we impose an eternal context into this we miss the point. This shows how God bestows His grace on those who have not received direct revelation through the Word, Prophets, Preaching, etc. It looks back to those, during the Age of Law, who were outside that sphere. This conflicts with the popular (and erroneous) teaching that men can only go to Heaven if they hear the Gospel and embrace it. We have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women of faith who were not privy to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...because it was a Mystery not revealed to men (Romans 16:26-7; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). It was not even until the Prophets that a more concise Prophecy of Christ began to be given. So to impose the possibility of "trusting in Jesus Christ" not only lacks the first Scripture to support it, it denies the very Scripture that teaches...it simply wasn't the case. One cannot even kame a case for the disciples trusting in Christ:
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Note that at this late date in Christ's Ministry that Scripture states He began at that time to give them the Gospel (v.21).
Note that Peter rejects the Gospel (v.22).
And we will see Peter try to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence (Matthew 26:51-52; Mark 14:47; John 18:10-11), and when that fails...he abandons the Lord (Matthew 26:71-72).
The reason?
John 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
So what we need is an answer from Scripture to support the concept that Abraham had eternal life and that he did not need to be eternally redeemed by Christ. We need to see where the Atonement was imputed to Abraham. We need to see where we can support men being Reconciled to God and explain why this is not accomplished by Christ as Scripture states:
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
When was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself? How were men reconciled before He manifested in the flesh? How did they become sons of God through the adoption of sins before they were redeemed from the Law (Galatians 4:4-6)?
It says that those who do the works of the Law will be justified. Only if someone tries to impose an eternal context into it do we see a conflict with Scripture. It's just a fact, men and women were justified by the works of the Law in a temporal context:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Why is this righteousness different from the righteousness of Abraham? Both are based on what they did...as opposed to what Christ did that men might be by the grace of God freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Nothing about the Gentiles holding the truth in unrighteousness, they are doers of the Law. And the text is clear, not the hearers of the Law are justified, but the doers. They do not even have the Oracles of God yet they can be justified by being obedient to the Law written on their hearts. This is the grace of God.
So show me that in Scripture, and address the points which show this isn't the case. Abraham died not receiving the promises. Those that equate Eternal Life with Temporal Justification are creating two ways by which a man can be saved. The Atonement was not applied prior to the Cross, though this is popularly taught and believed. We would have to see a Scriptural basis for it and it simply isn't there. We have only the doctrine of Catholics and Protestants that both equate being justified by what a man does with being Justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
I know, it's not for sale. It can only be had through diligent study.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 1, 2019 17:02:50 GMT
Then explain why Scripture states that those who do the works of the Law will be justified:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Deny that Paul states "...the doers of the Law shall be justified."
You can't, no-one can. Where you are having a problem is that you are confusing this with an eternal context, which is what Paul contrasts this statement with:
Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Two entirely differing contexts.
In a temporal context a man can be justified by "works of faith," but salvation in Christ has no works associated with it...at all. Not works of the Law, not works of faith...
...it is by grace alone:
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
No, actually, when Paul speaks of no works he means no works at all.
Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus is given freely based on what Christ did, not what men do. You don't get faith then have works and then you are justified, you are justified and then you have works. No different than we see with Abraham, who believed, had faith, and then had works (and in that order). But it was the grace of God which allowed Abraham to hear the promises that Abraham believed, which created the faith that told Abraham that if he sacrificed Isaac God would have to raise him from the dead to fulfill His promises. And that followed the belief by which Abraham was justified.
I know you mean well but you are in error about this, and you are denying a very simple statement in Scripture because you cannot distinguish the difference between an eternal context and a temporal:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Here are two people justified because of their obedience to the Law:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Justified yet still in need of a Savior, and the Atonemnt, and Reconciliation, and the Promised Spirit.
No, he isn't. James is speaking in a temporal context and this means that the justification in view has a horizontal application, between men and men. Not a vertical application between God and man as Paul speaks of in Romans 4. THen we consider that prior to faith in Christ being available to men, when they are justified it is still justification based on their earthly existence, not their eternal standing with God. Abraham was justified by his belief. His belief is the basis of his faith. His faith is the basis of his works, and the specific works spoken of in James 2 is the willingness to offer up Isaac, so if you want to say Abraham is justified in an eternal context based on what he did, and call that a "work of faith, you can. It won't be correct, though. James' point is simple, just because someone professes something doesn't mean it's a reality.
And the biggest problem with making this an eternal context is that if Abraham was justified on an eternal basis for what he did (offering up Isaac), then we must equally conclude that one can be justified if they give clothing to the cold and food to the hungry. Both absurd, as I am sure you would agree.
Because Catholicism imposed an equation between Abraham's justification for his willingness to offer up Isaac and salvation itself they corrupt many other passages. Protestants are not much better because they too ignore that James 2 and Romans 4 are dealing with Justification...
...not salvation.
That is what they are actually arguing about, whether men are saved by faith alone or by faith and works, and the simple fact of the matter is that neither passages are saying Abraham was saved, but that he was...
...justified.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 14:47:51 GMT
I would disagree with on a number of counts, first one being the Gospel was a Mystery (which is truth which has not been revealed to men). I will give a couple of verses that show this to be the case and makes it impossible to say that men were "looking forward to Jesus Christ:"
Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Secondly, we have Paul teaching us that faith in Christ was not available during the Age of Law (which makes it unavaialablein the Ages prior to it, this also verified by Ephesians 3:5 as well):
Galatians 3:23-27 King James Version (KJV)
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We also see the same thing taught in John 1:11-13, that men did not become sons of God prior to faith in Christ (which is specific to faith in His death and Resurrection) in vv.26-27.
Third, we can read the Old Testament and see that while the Gospel is found there by those of us who have had the Gospel revealed to us, not only was understanding not given to men...there is no way to equate what they were actually told with the full understanding of the Gospel as it has been revealed to us (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ Who is God manifest in the flesh for the express purpose of dying in our stead to take upon Himself the penalty for our sin, as well as rise again that we might have eternal life and not perish). An example of that is the Gospel as heard by Abraham (our key Bible character in this discussion of Temporal Justification:
Genesis 12:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
This is the Gospel, you and I can understand why, but for Abraham it was a matter of receiving a son and the world being blessed through his offspring. But the Scripture, not Abraham...looks forward to Christ:
Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
I will leave it at those three points for you-or anyone else-to address, but I will also go back to the point I repeated in the last post and ask you again to address it:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
This states without controversy that Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, and this is before God. They were keeping the Law, walking in all of the commandments and ordinances...blameless. This is a clear statement that states they were justified due to their obedience to the Law. This corresponds to Paul's statement that "...the doers of the Law shall be justified:"
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Now we contrast Luke 1:5-6 with another statement in Scripture found just a few verses after this statement (which demands we examine the text for correlation):
Romans 3:10-11 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
And here is the question: do we nullify the fact that Zacharias and Elisabeth were justified based on their obedience to the Law, as well as Paul's statement that the doers of the Law shall be justified...in an attempt to maintain a tired and erroneous view that has existed for centuries?
Please address these two points:
1. No man was "looking forward to Jesus Christ" with an understanding that He would die for their sin and bestow Eternal Life;
2. Men and women were justified based on their obedience to God's will as revealed to men, but...that does not equate to Eternal Justification which is a result of Eternal Redemption.
Keep in mind that Abraham did not "seek after God and he was not righteous in an eternal standing based on the Work of Christ (Romans 3:10-11)." God went to Him, made promises that Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40 say he died not receiving, Abraham believed, and just as Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, even so, was Abraham. But he died still in need of the Atonement and Reconciliation.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 15:04:37 GMT
And that is one of the biggest indicators that they had not received the Atonement...they had to continue in vicarious animal death until Christ's vicarious death was applied.
Those sacrifices were temporal and temporary and must be viewed in that context because they did not contribute to Eternal Redemption at all. They could not take away sins, only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that and make it unnecessary for animal sacrifice to continue:
Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:10 and 14-18 King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
The Writer contrasts the inability of those sacrifices (and in Hebrews 12:22-24 includes sacrifice all the way back to Abel) to take away sins, and then points out that the Sacrifice of Christ sanctifies us (sets apart, makes holy) once and for all...and makes us perfect (complete, see v.4) forever.
"Perfection" means a bringing to an end, completion of a goal. The goal of animal sacrifice was to make atonement and to bring about remission of sins. The Sacrifice of Christ makes us complete in regard to that goal, that is, Atonement and Remission of sins...forever.
You say in a following post...
I would suggest He was the only Lamb, and that the sacrifices that went before His death were meant only to foreshadow His Work on the Cross. And I agree, they were done in obedience, but the primary point I would ask you to consider is that just as remission of sins and atonement were temporal and applied only in that context, even so we have a temporal application to the justification of the Old Testament Saints.
And we must not equate the figures/types/shadows/parables with the realities. We know that the offering of animals didn't bring remission of sins and atonement equal to that bought by Christ in Eternal Redemp[tion, so why would we equate justification for people clearly awaiting Eternal Redemption?
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 15:34:02 GMT
And this is contrasted with God granting repentance by grace:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
If you read about Cornelius and his conversion in Acts 11, you will see that this was a man of faith, said to be Just (righteous), yet still in need of being saved (v.14), and still in need of being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into Christ through receiving Christ (John 14:16-18). But what some might miss is that it is not just this Old Testament Saint that has been saved...the Apostles are also said to have been saved in the same manner. We can pinpoint when because Peter quotes the Lord's statement in Acts 1:4-5, which means...they were not yet saved, not yet baptized into Christ, and therefore still awaiting Eternal Redemption in Acts 1.
This is repentance that is granted through salvation in Christ, it is not an intellectual work of men.
Sorry, but men are not saved by faith, they are saved by grace through faith.
And there is no anticipation of salvation through a Man Who was God in the flesh Who died to take upon us the penalty for sin. There was an anticipation of a Messiah, yes, but the Gospels show that they had no clue, even when God reveals to them that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God:
Matthew 16:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Immediately after this revelation (given to the disciples by God, also not an intellectual conclusion drawn by men) is declared Peter will-howbeit inadvertently-due to his lack of the revelation of the Gospel...reject the Gospel preached by none other than Jesus Christ Himself:
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter will go on to attempt to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence (which itself is an attempt to see his own understanding of what Messiah was to accomplish fulfilled (physical redemption for Israel, see also Acts 1:6-7)), then will deny he even knows the Lord, and then will go back to his former occupation because he has lost all hope).
And I would throw in right here that John the Baptist was used to preach about the Lamb of God, yet in prison we see that he himself was not privy to an understanding of Who Christ was and what He would do:
Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Yes, people had faith in the Old Testament, and were "saved by grace through faith," but we don't equate that with being eternally redeemed by the finished Work of Christ. There is a reason why He states "It is finished" just prior to His death.
The same way any man will ever be saved...by grace through faith. But as I have said before, they were saved yet not Eternally Redeemed, just as we are saved and not glorified. Both of our eternal destinies are secured by grace through faith but that doesn' mean there isn't more that will take place within our salvation.
I use the KJV because, first, it is a great translation and I view much of newer translations to be sloppy, dry, and lacking in a fuller attempt to bring out concepts being presented in the original languages. Another primary reason I use it is that it is accepted by those who will read only a KJV, their reasons being but a side issue in my mind. So I don't want to alienate someone simply because he/she thinks God has replaced the original languages with KJV English. One thing I will say about the KJVonly (and no-one paying attention to my teaching would accuse me of that because I rely heavily on the original languages) is that at least they have a fervent loyalty to the Word of God. A loyalty that surpasses some of the teachings I see going around these days.
Commentaries have their place. Systems of Theologies can have their place. But I see that most people adopt the teachings of men and for many, this essentially keeps them from allowing God to speak to them. Everyone who has adopted a System who refuses to acknowledge the error of those systems (and they all have error) will be found to proof-texting error in an attempt to justify their adopted system and thereby...justifying their own beliefs. For many, any declaration of error within their system is often held as an attack on themselves. And if you pay very close attention to what most people say in their posts you are going to find that most people are defending themselves, rather than defending the Faith.
The saddest part of all this is that those who adopt systems and views they have not themselves verified in Scripture is this: they have adopted someone else's faith, rather than developing a faith of their own.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 15:43:02 GMT
No need to be sorry, just a need to address the points which show your own view to be in error. Let's start with these two:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
This states without controversy that Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, and this is before God. They were keeping the Law, walking in all of the commandments and ordinances...blameless. This is a clear statement that states they were justified due to their obedience to the Law. This corresponds to Paul's statement that "...the doers of the Law shall be justified:"
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Now we contrast Luke 1:5-6 with another statement in Scripture found just a few verses after this statement (which demands we examine the text for correlation):
Romans 3:10-11 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
And here is the question: do we nullify the fact that Zacharias and Elisabeth were justified based on their obedience to the Law, as well as Paul's statement that the doers of the Law shall be justified...in an attempt to maintain a tired and erroneous view that has existed for centuries?
Please address these two points:
1. No man was "looking forward to Jesus Christ" with an understanding that He would die for their sin and bestow Eternal Life;
2. Men and women were justified based on their obedience to God's will as revealed to men, but...that does not equate to Eternal Justification which is a result of Eternal Redemption.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 16:05:57 GMT
It's not me you are disagreeing with, it is the Word of God. You are nullifying some very simple statements in Scripture.
You aren't going to change what this states:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
You aren't going to change that the doers of the Law shall be justified, or the example of those who are justified because they do the Law, such as the Gentiles here, or Zacharius and Elisabeth in Luke 1:5-6, or for that matter...Cornelius. Many examples given in Scripture of Temporal Justification. And no examples of Scripture that detract from this simple truth. No address of the points raised...not even one of them.
You are imposing into Scripture the concept of "keeping the Law perfectly that one might have eternal life (Galatians 3:21). Of course no-one kept it perfectly because if they had been able to there would have been no need for Jesus Christ, eternal life would have been by the Law (as Paul states in Galatians 3:21).
And you point out that they fell short yet you still insist that Abraham...didn't. If he were justified on an equal basis of being justified by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus...why did CHrist need to die?
Because he (Abraham) wasn't justified in an eternal context whereby his need for a Savior was nullified.
Sometimes.
And that provision was temporal:
Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Even the annual sacrifice for the sins of Israel as a nation...was a parable:
Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Everything that precedes Jesus Christ, His Work, and what He accomplished was a figure/type.shadow/parable...not the reality. You are equating what was meant only to foreshadow the realities to the very realities unveiled in the New Testament
Again, you argue with the Scripture and impose into the text what is not there.
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Show me why the declaration of their righteousness is false? Show me the basis is "they properly sacrificed."
Show me how this doesn't say "...they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
It is hard for thee to kick against the goads.
Doesn't matter, it still remains...
"...they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
You aren't going to nullify the Word of God with an attempt to hold on to the traditions and teachings of men.
They are declared righteous based on their walking in all the ordinances and commandments of the Lord...blameless." We know, based on a balanced understanding of Scripture, that the declaration of righteousness is based on...
...grace. The Grace of God. Not their works. But what you are rejecting is what Scripture states, they are declared righteous based on their response to God's will, just as Abraham and Rahab are in James 2. And when you can see that despite that they still needed a Savior because their righteousness was Temporal then you will be able to balance the Word of God yourself, and leave what it states in there without trying to nullify it.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 16:16:30 GMT
And where exactly do you see this in Luke 1?
"...walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" implies quite a bit more than simply properly offering up sacrifice.
We see why He imputed righteousness:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Justification based on what they did, not Justification based on what Christ did. It's right there, lol.
The Law was given because of sin, and it showed man he was a sinner, and thus created a knowledge of the need of salvation. But it is the revelation GOd provided men which was bestowed by His grace that resulted in belief and faith, as well as works. Salvation is by grace alone. No man has ever been or will be saved unless God intervenes in their lives and goes to them. You won't find a simgle person this isn't true of in Scripture, beginning with Adam.
It's just a basic principle that men were cmmanded to keep the Law and that men received punishment for not keeping it. You can deny this if you like but it is a basic truth. You are nullifying what God has spoken:
Ezekiel 18:4-9 King James Version (KJV)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
Because most impose an eternal context into this passage as well they overlook that in view is physical life and physical death based on...keeping the Law.
Not eternal life, because no man will receive eternal life until Christ comes, dies, rises again, returns to Heaven...and begins baptizing men with the Holy Ghost. Which is the process of immersing men into God and He into them. We have eternal life because we are now in Him Who is Eternal.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 16:38:41 GMT
Actually, you haven't. You have simply stated your opinion and refused to address the points raised that show your opinion is erroneous.
You state that the text only shows no man can keep the Law when in fact the whole point is that justification is not because one hears the Law but does the Law...
...followed by an example among the Gentiles who perform the works of the Law despite being outside of the Sphere of the Word of God.
Your opinion is the exact opposite of what is actually said.
On the contrary, lol, I am the only one in this discussion who is leaving what is stated as it is. I am not dependent on imposing into the text...what isn't there.
Not in the text:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Why do you think Paul gives an example of someone...doing the Law? How on earth can you possibly deny that they are...performing the works of the Law? They are doers, and if the Word of God states that the doers of the Law shall be justified, and it does (v.13)...who are you to deny the Word of God?
This sounds as though you are reading from a commentary. None of it applies to the actual texts we are looking at.
It is true that those who judge others but are doing the same thing are judged by the same Law, however, we see a contrast between those who do good and those who do not preceding Paul's statement of Justification by keeping the Law:
Romans 2:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Paul is contrasting Jew (who had the Law and the Word, Romans 3:1-2) and the Gentile, and makes the simple point that those who are doers of the Law, not hearers only (which refers to those who have heard the Law and judge others despite being themselves guilty)...shall be justified.
Just read your Bible.
Right. And their knowledge of sin based on the Law and the Word is contrasted with the knowledge of sin among Gentiles who have had the Law revealed to them by God. He is the One that wrote/writes it on the hearts of those outside the sphere of the Law and the Word of God.
Nature didn't give them the Law, that is made clear in the fact that the natural man cannot perceive or receive the spiritual things of God within his natural condition (Romans 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14). God is the One that reveals truth to men. This is a consistent principle of Scripture, seen explicitly as well as implicitly.
True but not relevant to your denial of what Romans 2:13 states.
And that is how men will be determined just of not:
Romans 2:13-16 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Again you state the exact opposite of what Scripture states:
Romans 2 King James Version (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
You say "Both Jew and Gentile are accountable to God as both have the Law," see above for what Scripture states.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 16:51:05 GMT
That is not what Scripture states:
Romans 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
The problem, again, is that you are so afraid that someone might think Justification on an eternal basis is by performing the works of the Law you have blanked out anything that might even remotely support that. You don't need to worry about that because the justification in view...
...is temporal.
No-one will be saved by those works, simply justified on a temporal basis. It is the belief and faith that underlies the works which evidence the true reason why that person might overcome when they are judged. And both belief and faith are a result of God's grace. He reveals truth to the natural man, natural man responds. How he responds will determine whether he is justified or not.
RIght...they. Because we have to remember that Paul is using this as an example to clarify his teachings concerning what is now being revealed to men:
Romans 3:20-25 King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Learn to understand what the "therefore" is there for. Romans 1 and 2 look back to the economies that precede this one. This one specifies that now the righteousness of God...apart from the Law...is manifest. That is brand new and it was established on the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ.
Of course there is:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Actually the only justification men will receive will be based on grace, not faith. You are putting the horse in the cart.
It does:
Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 17:46:44 GMT
Sorry to disappoint, but I am not a Calvinist and anyone that knows what Calvin taught will know that he taught men have always been regenerated in order to have faith. That is erroneous.
But I am glad your next statement comes into agreement with the point that was made.
I have not read your other responses so hopefully they will address the points, or at least one of the points I have asked you to address, that we might continue in this discussion...on topic.
That was the point.
Many today embrace and teach salvation by faith through grace, and that is error. We must always maintain the simple truth that no-one is saved apart from God's grace. Belief and Faith and Works are a result of that grace.
I agree, and that is why I have spent so much time pointing out, with numerous Scriptures...what the Old Testament placed their faith in, and what they did not place their faith in. That is being ignored. The Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed to men in past Ages (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27) and faith in Christ was not available to men during the Age of Law nor after (Galatians 3:20-17).
And men were not redeemed from the Law and adotped as children of God until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).
Men were not reconciled to GOd until God was in Christ (manifested in the flesh among men, see also John 1:11-14) reconciling the world unto HImself (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).
Not much point in reposting these passages (though Ref-Tagger allows the passages to be viewed in this post) until someone takes a sincere interest in addressing them.
This is true. so why didn't they go to be with God in Heaven (Hebrews 9:8-9)?
No, actually they weren't, because they, like the disciples of Christ both before and after the REsurrection...knew not the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead (John 20:9).
THis is true as well, He liberated the Just (and only the Just) from Hades.
There isn't a single solitary Scriptural statement to this effect. If I have missed it I would please like to see it.
Again, I see no Biblical basis for this, and would have to see what it is you base this on in order to comment further.
Only the Just were liberated from hades. Man's destiny is decided while they are alive, there is absolutely no basis for hope of salvation for those who die outside of God's will, regardless of the Age they lived in.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 17:54:41 GMT
Not really sure how this is relevant to the topic. Job's sacrifices were temporal and while they are a foreshadowing of the Cross, it was not Job dying in the stead of his children.
RIght, Paradise, another name for the compartment of the Just in Hades. And that is where the thief was that day...in Hades.
Actually, he did not: Christ dies before the thief.
While "Paradise" is used to speak of Heaven in two places, I lean heavily towards the Lord's statement meaning he would be in Hades with Him that day, because that is where Christ was...for three days:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There is a good argument to be made that the Just of Hades did not precede the Lord in His return to Heaven.
Rather than speculate about issues like this, could you address the two points I asked you to (and if you have already great, I am responding to these in order).
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 17:58:19 GMT
We all know no-one kept the Law perfectly, but that doesn't mean that we don't see people keeping the Law. The entire Covenant is based on keeping the Law.
We aren't talking about keeping the Law for salvation, we are simply speaking about being justified because the Law was kept. Again, we see this here:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Does this say they are righteous and walking in all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless or not?
God bless.
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