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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2019 15:23:35 GMT
Truth said:
I would agree they both have application to the Eternal State, however, we still see a physical demand on the prophecy that can only be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom. Death is irrelevant to the Eternal State, for there will be no more dying, so we can't construe a man dying at an hundred years of age being considered a child to speak of the Eternal State.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2019 15:54:07 GMT
Truth said:
As already shown, it is 1) impossible to have the ministry of the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist concurrent, and 2) we know that the final Week will be seven years like the rest of them.
I notice you have not addressed a single point made, or the Scriptures verifying the points.. When will you realize your opinions mean nothing to those who love God's Word? If you are going to teach someone...use the Word of God and that consistently.
Sorry, no. Present the similarities in the judgments and I will show you the dissimilarities which make it clear they are differing sets of judgments. For example:
Revelation 8:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Two differing sets of Judgment.
Sea above. (pun intended)
No, Scripture is very clear, they are raised in the middle of the Week which corresponds to the Antichrist reneging on his support of the Covenant of Law (Daniel 9:27). They are also raised and raptured (which is irrelevant to the general resurrection of the dead, seeing that this universe has passed away and the new heavens and Earth are not yet created) in between the second and third woe...
Revelation 11:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
...and this is when Antichrist takes control. The Third Woe is the unleashing of the Vial judgments, which we can see differ from the Seal and Trumpet Judgments.
That might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the Vials are poured out after the trumpet Judgments:
Revelation 16:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
We have the Two Witnesses resurrected and raptured in the middle of the Week, then the Tribulation Martyrs resurrected at the end of the tribulation, which makes two resurrections at least, which shows your statement is erroneous.
We can also show you are in error by the simple fact that the unjust are not raised at the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs:
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
If there is only one Rapture, and only one resurrection, then how do you reconcile the fact that the dead ("dead" because they do not have the life of Christ, Eternal Life) are not resurrected for a thousand years? Even if you try to make a thousand years a day, lol, they are not resurrected at the same time as you keep insisting.
And the reason why you are blind to something as simple as this is that you are more loyal to your belief system than you are to the Word of God. Even after being shown the utter ridiculousness of your view you still seek to proof-text your way around what is written.
A thousand years separates the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs and the dead, that is what it is written.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2019 16:00:11 GMT
Truth said:
But we don't see "final judgment" until revelation 20. And in between...is a thousand years.
We also see the pouring out of the Vials, which are different judgments though similar, poured out after the Seventh Trumpet Judgment, which is actually the Seven Last Plagues.
Again, show the similarities you see in the three sets of judgments and I will show you the dissimilarities.
Again you err because of your loyalty to your belief system: The New heavens and Earth aren't created until after the Great White Throne.
One point only would I ask you not to ignore in this post:
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
If there is only one Rapture, and only one resurrection, then how do you reconcile the fact that the dead ("dead" because they do not have the life of Christ, Eternal Life) are not resurrected for a thousand years? Even if you try to make a thousand years a day, lol, they are not resurrected at the same time as you keep insisting.
Please address this point.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2019 14:48:48 GMT
Truth said:
Nothing in Peter's statement denies time, or periods of time given in Scripture. This is perhaps one of the shoddiest excuses given for any particular argument found in Scripture.
Peter is looking at the very difference betweeen time as viewed by men and time as viewed by God, hence in God's perspective time is irrelevant, but that isn't the case in regards to man on Earth:
2 Peter 3:3-8 King James Version (KJV)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Peter does not ignore Time's relevance to man...that is the entire point. He is speaking of the future (v.3) and the past (vv.4-6)...and the end (v.7).
Were the thousands of years that had passed since Creation a "day" for men? Not at all...they were thousands of years, lol.
Was the thousand years that passed prior to the Flood and total destruction of the Earth a day to the men that lived then? Not at all...it was a thousand years.
Only from God's perspective is time irrelevant, and to try to remove the Word of God with v.8 is the height of absurdity. It has no relevance to...
Revelation 20:4-10 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I can leave Scripture as it is written and let it speak for itself. I don't have to contrive an absurd argument to nullify what is written.
And you also see literal truths. That is the problem with nullifying the Word of God...you only have part of Truth.
The Angel is literal.
Heaven and the heavens are literal.
The Devil, Satan...is literal.
God is literal.
Christ is literal.
And let's not forget all of the other literal aspects of the passage:
The Nations are literal.
The Tribulation Martyrs are literal.
Their resurrection unto life is literal.
The Beast is literal.
The Word of God is literal.
The dead in Hades are literal.
The First Resurrection is literal.
The Second death is literal.
The Priests of God and of Christ are literal.
The Resign of Christ is literal.
And whether you want to admit it or not...
...the thousand years are literal.
So while there is a spiritual aspect to some of these elements, that doesn't nullify the literal truths taught us in this passage.
No, they correctly teach what Prophecy demands.Not a single argument you present even makes sense. "It's not a thousand years because time is irrelevant to God in regards to when this current universe passes out of existance." Twaddle.
It's not hard to see, when we see God promised a Kingdom restored to Israel in which men will live long lives and no longer be at enmity with animals, and what do you know...there is a passage after Christ's Return (Revelation 19) that states resurrected Tribulation Martyrs reign with Christ for...
...one thousand years.
The truth is that has to to intentionally blind themselves to what is written here to not see it.
Your argument...
...is the false teaching. Every time figurative language is used there is still a literal truth being taught. And there is no spiritual truth in "There is no thousand years!" Just how many times does the Lord have to say there will be a thousand years for you to understand...there's going to be a thousand years separating the Return of Christ and the end Peter speaks about?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2019 14:59:40 GMT
Truth said:
As I said before, you can hardly charge me with ignoring anything, yet you haven't dealt with the numerous points that show yourview and statements to be in error.
How about actually quoting what I say and dealing with the points one at a time? I can't carry this entire conversation while you reiterate the same tired error. You are mixing Tribulation texts with both Rapture relevant texts and texts relevant to the Great White Throne, some of which have relevance to both. As I also saod before, Prophecy can have a near fulfillment and maintain a future fulfillment. I have shown how you confuse these and give distinctly different events as the same one. Antiochus Epiphanes was a partial/near fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, yet Christ taught it was yet future.
Here are some examples of your contradictory view:
You have no answer for...
So quote these and address them.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 16:09:35 GMT
Truth said:
What is refuted, and has been several times, is your view that Revelation is not a chronological account of future events.
You keep posting the same statements over and over and it doesn't make them any more valid than the first time you posted them.
Once again:
I can't help you see this as it is, a thousand years clearly depicted after Christ's Return.
And you "non-literal" explanation is ludicrous.
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Not sure why you can't read this and understand that the Tribulation Martyrs are not raised at the same time as the "rest of the dead." It makes your view moot.
You haven't, lol, you simply keep [posting the same tired arguments. You do a little better in this post but still offer absurd arguments that have no basis in Scripture and can easily be seen as nothing but opinion.
I've already shown you the literal aspect of this passage, and you ignored it:
Revelation 20:4-10 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I can leave Scripture as it is written and let it speak for itself. I don't have to contrive an absurd argument to nullify what is written.
And you also see literal truths. That is the problem with nullifying the Word of God...you only have part of Truth.
The Angel is literal.
Heaven and the heavens are literal.
The Devil, Satan...is literal.
God is literal.
Christ is literal.
And let's not forget all of the other literal aspects of the passage:
The Nations are literal.
The Tribulation Martyrs are literal.
Their resurrection unto life is literal.
The Beast is literal.
The Word of God is literal.
The dead in Hades are literal.
The First Resurrection is literal.
The Second death is literal.
The Priests of God and of Christ are literal.
The Resign of Christ is literal.
And whether you want to admit it or not...
...the thousand years are literal.
So while there is a spiritual aspect to some of these elements, that doesn't nullify the literal truths taught us in this passage.
You can't nullify the truths being taught by trying to spiritualize the entire passage.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 16:20:08 GMT
Truth said:
That is the exact opposite of what the text actually states:
Revelation 20:4-10 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
No matter how badly you want to make one resurrection out of the several we see in Scripture, you will never be able to change the fact that there is a period of time between the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs and "the rest of the dead."
You know that repeating something and expecting a different result is described as insanity, right?
Let's look at a different aspect of the passage:
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
So Satan isn't bound for a thousand years? This does not take place until Christ returns, how exactly do you reconcile this?
And we see that after he is loosed he still has a part to play:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
We know that Satan hasn't been bound yet...
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
...so we can place his binding at Christ's Return.
So explain this.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 16:23:42 GMT
Truth said:
I've already shown that there is time after the Lord's Return that you can't account for in your view. The 75 days after the end of the Tribulation is just one of them. So explain how Daniel is wrong and you are right:
Daniel 12:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 16:35:45 GMT
Truth said:
Could you direct me to the post in which you show this? lol
You have nullified the Word of God with your view. The promised Kingdom will take place.
Please explain the following passage:
Zechariah 14:16-21 King James Version (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
When is this fulfilled?
And this has already been addressed, and here you are repeating the same argument.
2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
That a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day does not impact the time on earth, because it is men on earth questioning the amount of time that has passed with no apparent fulfillment of God's promise/s.
As I said before, this simply points out that time is irrelevant to God, and makes it abundantly clear in this passage that time is not irrelevant to men. The reason time keeps going by without fulfillment is given also, because God is being patient that men can be saved before destruction comes.
And I can leave all Prophecy intact without appealing to a spiritualization of Revelation or any other passage. You cannot.
These are not "spiritual" elements, they are all literal.
Don't you get tired of repeating the same thing over and over? Doesn't it bother you that you can only offer your opinion on the topic?
Sorry, but as I said you would have to be blind to miss it.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2019 17:06:25 GMT
This is, I hope, my last post with this person. There are only so many times you can try to address the same arguments over and over, and it gets to a point where nothing is going to be accomplished by continuing discussion:
Sorry, no. It is just what the text states, and we see examples of periods of time given after the Lord's Return.
We can see a difference between the events at the Lord's Return and the ervents after the thousand years are expired:
Revelation 19:17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Here we see that there is time for those who are physically slain by the Lord to be feasted upon by carrion fowl.
But here...
Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
...they are simply burned up, which correlates to Peter's statement...
2 Peter 3:7-10 King James Version (KJV)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
...which also correlates to...
Revelation 20:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Two entirely different events, and at this point I have decided that since you ignore everything that takes place in between these events, as well as ignore everything I see, there is really no point in trying to discuss this with you any longer. You haven't offered the first point that validates your view and the fact remains that despite the fact that you can't see the thousand years that intervenes between the Lord's Return and the passing away of the current universe...
...most people do.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 21, 2019 14:08:40 GMT
Truth said:
What you did for twenty years is embrace what was taught without actually understanding Scripture for yourself. That is why you "believed" it, and when another doctrine came along you "believed" that.
Now, you ridicule "Dispensationalism," so let's examine that.
Was there a time when men were not under the Law?
Was there a time when men were brought under the Law?
Was there a time when men were redeemed from the Law?
If you can answer yes to at least two of these questions you are forced to embrace the truth that there are at least two dispensations (administrations). This makes ridicule of "Dispensationalism" absurd.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 21, 2019 14:29:09 GMT
Truth said:
The entire point of The Olivet Discourse is to show the signs of Christ's Return.
The passage you ignored earlier shows that Christ will be on earth with men:
Zechariah 14:16-21 King James Version (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Would you mind telling me when this was fulfilled? We both know it hasn't been, and there is no way one can impose a context of the Eternal State into this passage. One could argue that this doesn't mean Christ has to be present for men to come and worship Him, but if we leave Scripture intact that is the inevitable conclusion. This chapter begins with Christ's Return:
Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
This corresponds to this...
Acts 1:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Revelation 19:11, 16-21 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
As mentioned before, we cant make the two distinct events of Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 the same event. In the former we see that men are physically killed and eaten by carrion fowl. In Revelation 20...
Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
...we see that after the thousand years unbelievers are immediately destroyed by fire, as prophesied by Peter, as well as Zechariah.
Just as the three sets of Judgments are distinct from each other and show that there is not a concurrent fulfillment that justifies ending the Tribulation in the very middle, lol, even so these two events are distinct.
As I keep pointing out, you are teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches:
Zechariah 14:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 21, 2019 14:45:45 GMT
Truth said:
In your mind you think you have "clearly shown" this, but the fact remains it is impossible to ignore the periods of time that follow the end of the Tribulation:
Daniel 12:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Daniel 12:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
So what exactly do you do with this 75 days? And how is it that the daily sacrifice is taken away...at the beginning of the Tribulation?
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Is the Antichrist sitting in the Temple declaring himself god while the Two witnesses minister? How could he do that if the Two Witnesses are impervious to him for 42 months?
The idea that, first, Enoch and Elijah didn't die is your first mistake. Enoch didn't "see" death as men do, which can just as well mean he didn't "experience it as men do, not that he didn't die. He was taken to Sheol/Hades as any other man that is taken out of this world is.
Elijah sent a letter after he was caught up to the heavens (rather than "caught up to Heaven," no man entered Heaven prior to the Cross):
2 Chronicles 21:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
And because the rapture will have taken place at that point, there is no need to try to enforce a rigid demand on "...it is appointed unto all men to die." Many will not see death in the Rapture. The difference though will be that they will be glorified, whereas Enoch was not at the time of his translation to Sheol.
[/B] 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred andthreescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half , and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet ; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud ; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and,behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[/QUOTE]
And the primary problem you have with your view is that there are still events that take place after this, not to mention the Seven Vial Judgments, which are the Third Woe.
Have a blessed Easter.
God bless. [/font]
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2019 14:02:39 GMT
I have disregarded nothing, lol. You simply keep reiterating the same tired arguuments and you are not able to address the first point I raised.
Here is what is disregarded from the last post:
I've already shown you the literal aspect of this passage, and you ignored it:
Revelation 20:4-10 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and ofChrist, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out ofheaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophetare, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I can leave Scripture as it is written and let it speak for itself. I don't have to contrive an absurd argument to nullify what is written.
And you also see literal truths. That is the problem with nullifying the Word of God...you only have part of Truth.
The Angel is literal.
Heaven and the heavens are literal.
The Devil, Satan...is literal.
God is literal.
Christ is literal.
And let's not forget all of the other literal aspects of the passage:
The Nations are literal.
The Tribulation Martyrs are literal.
Their resurrection unto life is literal.
The Beast is literal.
The Word of God is literal.
The dead in Hades are literal.
The First Resurrection is literal.
The Second death is literal.
The Priests of God and of Christ are literal.
The Reign of Christ is literal.
And whether you want to admit it or not...
...the thousand years are literal.
So while there is a spiritual aspect to some of these elements, that doesn't nullify the literal truths taught us in this passage.
You can't nullify the truths being taught by trying to spiritualize the entire passage.
Name one thing in this list that isn't literal, and don't say the thousand years, because your argument is that...it is all "spiritual." And the fact is that it is all literal, despite the use of figurative language in describing certain elements.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2019 14:02:47 GMT
In regards to fire at the Lord's coming, again you blind yourself to the two events given in Revelation, both having two entirely different conclusions. The first agrees with the Prophecy of the Old Testament passages concerning the Supper of the Great God...
Ezekiel 39 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
Revelation 19:17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
These agree with the Lord's teaching concerning His return and presence (parousia):
Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke 17:24, 30-37 King James Version (KJV)
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him,Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Again you teach the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches. You are saying everyone is burned up with fire at His Return, when that is not the testimony of the Lord in these two verses, nor is it the testimony of Revelation 19 which actually shows the very Return of Christ.
The above speaks of physical death for unbelievers, whereas when God does consume men with fire from the earth...
Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Their flesh will not be feasted upon in the second event, but in the first.
Again, I have disregarded nothing, whereas you delete everything from Revelation 19:17-20:9.
The thousand year Reign of Christ cannot be nullified by you or anyone else. Though you are blind to it, you do well in giving those here an example of how not to interpret the Prophecy of Revelation.
Thanks!
Continued...
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