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Post by Admin on Apr 11, 2019 16:06:56 GMT
I would also add that only with a Pre-trib Rapture position do we see prophecy left intact. The Rapture is the resurrection of all believers at the same time at some point in history. Based on the fact that there will be unbelievers in the Millennial Kingdom yet all unbelievers are destroyed at the Lord's Return the most consistent view is that those unbelievers are offspring of those who enter the Kingdom, meaning those who are born again during the Tribulation.
Many think the "first" resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is the Rapture because it is the "first," however, the word translated "first" is the word protos that has both an application in regards to sequence as well as "rank." We know an understanding of sequence is not possible because the "First" Resurrection" in a meaning of sequence is that of the Lord Jesus Christ:
Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Secondly, we see in Revelation 11 that the Two Witnesses are resurrected and raptured:
Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So the most logical application of protos in Revelation 20:4 is that of rank or quality, where we conclude it is the "first" resurrection because it is the Resurrection unto Life, which has only a counterpart of the Resurrection unto Damnation. Those are the only two types of resurrection that apply to the context.
And let's not forget that Paul did not think he had to go through the Tribulation in order to be raptured, that was his constant desire:
2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
His point is that he wants to be with the Lord and to have his glorified body but he doesn't want to be found "naked," or in other words, a spirit departed from his body, dead. He would prefer not to have the problems associated with the flesh but not to the point where he'd rather die than deal with that.
The Rapture will be Pre-Trib, and at that time every member of the Church, the Body of Christ, will be glorified and caught up to Heaven just as the Two Witnesses and the Tribulation Martyrs will be (though the Tribulation Martyrs reign with Christ, most likely here on Earth). Only those born again will enter the Kingdom as taught by the Lord in John 3 (though this has an application to the Kingdom Christ established through His death as well). They willl produce offspring that will rebel against God and join ranks with satan and be destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 16:37:19 GMT
The problem we see here is that you have nullified Prophecy for some reason, and confuse the Lord's Return with the Rapture, as well as making the promises of God null and void.
God promised Israel that He would restore them and this is in physical terms, not in eternity. For example, the Great Supper of God in Revelation 20 corresponds to previous Prophecy God has given us:
Revelation 19:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Ezekiel 39 King James Version (KJV)
39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
When we refrain from nullifying the Word of God, and removing that which God has stated will take place, it is much easier to understand the timeline of events in Revelation.
Let's continue in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 39:8-12 King James Version (KJV)
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
It's a little difficult to create a scenario that Christ returns and the Eternal State is immediately created. Of course, if you didn't remove the thousand years in Revelation, or try to nullify it with a formula, you would know that.
In the many numerous out of context proof texts you have provided I notice one thing: you still haven't answered my question:
And now I really am leaving. See you in the morning, Lord willing.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 19:04:26 GMT
We will call this poster "Truth:"
Would you mind directing me to the passage in Scripture where we see this fulfilled?
Would you mind telling me why it is that if Ezekiel 39 had already been fulfilled we still see the Supper of the Great God foretold as yet a future event...after Christ came?
Ezekiel 39:17-22 King James Version (KJV)
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
Revelation 19:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Does the House of Israel know that He is God? What day was it that happened? It didn't happen when Christ came, so we know it didn't happen before He came. When exactly was this fulfilled? How is it that this has been fulfilled when it is still being prophesied long after Christ's coming? When?
Would you care to explain how you can see Prophecy fulfilled...when Paul didn't?
Romans 11:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Care to explain how it is Israel has been restored...when paul still looked for it as a future event?
Like I said, you nullify Scripture to support your doctrine and it simply doesn't work.
Again I ask, was there a time when men weren't under the law, then they were, now they are no longer?
That is three dispensations right there. Denying the various dispensations is on a par with denying there is going to be a Rapture.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 19:35:53 GMT
More from "Truth:"
So show how those things presented in the last post were fulfilled then. Explain why the Supper of the Great God...is yet to happen. Prophecy can have more than one application. Just as parts of Daniel were fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes and will be fulfilled in the man of sin, the Antichrist, the Beast of Revelation, even so we can see some partial fulfillment in the past.
But that doesn't nullify the fact that there is yet a future fulfillment to come.
Your vitriol blinds you to proper bible Study. You need to work on that, because you will never be useful to the Lord in trying to teach believers with a spirit like that.
That there will be a Millennial Kingdom isn't open to debate, it is a basic principle of Old Testament Prophecy. It is what the disciples were looking for:
Acts 1:4-7 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Again we see that the Restoration of Israel is a future event. It wasn't for them to know. And the sad thing is this: they are looking for that physical redemption when they have just been told "You are going to be baptized with the Holy Ghost in a few days." I see this same sadness in your postings, because you are so set against what is just basic to Old Testament Prophecy.
When were these fulfilled...
Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
...?
You can't say it'll be fulfilled in the Eternal State, because...there won't be any death there.
It is sad to see you robbed of the hope of the Kingdom that is coming, and worse...that you seek to rob others of that joy.
Right, because those who believe that God will keep His promises are really supporting the Antichrist. What twaddle.
Agreed, beware of those that nullify Scripture and teach from the parts they think are still relevant.
You are taking away from the Word of God, my friend. Try to leave Scripture intact so you can properly understand the Word of God.
And? Are you trying to say that because it states "It is come" that this means it's not Prophecy?
Seriously?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 19:51:45 GMT
"Truth" said:
You are only giving part of Christ and the Apostles' teaching and completely nullifying the Prophecy of the Old Testament to reach your erroneous conclusion.
How exactly do you reject the very simple statement of Scripture?
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
While you can deceive many who do not bother to study for themselves, nothing is ever going to change the fact that Scripture clearly teaches a thousand year period after Christ's Return. Your formula, "a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years" is simply a statement that time...is irrelevant to God. When God said Seventy Weeks...how long did He means?
So try to justify taking away from the words that are written in this Book. Your entire position hinges on it.
I also want an answer to the questions in the previous post.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 20:06:02 GMT
"Truth" said:
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
You leave out the verse that shows this is a context dealing with glorification. The first ones to be glorified will be those who are raptured prior to the Tribulation. Are you forgetting that the Two Witnesses are resurrected and raptured...in the middle of the Tribulation? This has a specific correlation to the Church that Paul is writing to. We can see from Matthew 25 and Luke 17 that unbelievers are put to death physically and the physical believers remain alive. They are not glorified. And since the Two Witnesses are raptured prior to the Return of Christ seen in Revelation 19, either you are wrong or Scripture is.
Which one will you view as in error?
The "quick/living and dead" in view are believers who have the life of Christ (are born again during the Tribulation, who are also physically alive, and those who are "left" in Luke 17) and the dead, who are those who do not have life (unbelievers).
He will judge when He returns (His appearing) and in His Kingdom. Those that die during the Tribulation that were born again will also reign with Him during this thousand year Kingdom:
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
You just can't remove that thousand years.
Rapture.
Second Coming.
Rapture. Points to our glorification in 3:2.
If you viewed Scripture as Holy you would not be taking away from it to satisfy your desires of what you want Scripture to teach.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 20:18:34 GMT
"Truth" said:
"The last day" in view is the Great White Throne:
Revelation 20:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
You still have an intervening thousand years from Christ's Return until this point. The "dead" remain in Hades until then, so not sure why it is you reject what Scripture teaches and ignore all of this. Or perhaps I should say I don't know how you can do this.
You are probably unaware that the Gospel at this point was still a Mystery, and that no man was yet believing on Christ, not even His Own disciples:
Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
John 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
How that is relevant is that we must understand that the Lord's teachings are in large part veiled, shrouded in mystery, because He ministered...under the Law, and only to the Lost Sheep of Israel:
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
He was not revealing the Gospel of Christ to men, though we do see that late in His earthly ministry He presents it to the disciples, who, not having yet an understanding...reject it:
Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter would go on to attempt to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence and murderous intent, thinking he was justified because God had promised Messiah would restore the Kingdom unto Israel. When that failed Peter denies he even knows the Lord with cursing.
Until you understand that you will never be able to understand Eschatology.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 20:35:31 GMT
"Truth" said:
This has a tribulation context in relation to the Return described in Revelation 19.
"Quickly" does not mean "soon," it is speaking of the quickness of events when He comes.
And what do you have to support that. Nothing but a lot of opinion. Anyone can paste verses into a post, let's see how you address the points raised.
That the Sheep and Goat Judgment take place on the verge of establishment of the Millennial Kingdom is something so basic that it always amazes me to see amillennial and preterist commentary on it, lol.
Let's take a look at Daniel, and the end of the tribulation:
Daniel 12:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The "end" will be in 3 1/2 years. That we know this is the time period is further supported by the use of months in relation to the "end:"
Daniel 12:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
So we have 3 1/2 years (which is 360 days according to the Jewish Calendar) until the "end," however, here that period is added to in v.11 with an additional 30 days. Then, in v.12, we see another forty five days added, bring a total of 75 days to the 3 1/2 years of the final half of the Tribulation.
So much for the idea that the Lord returns and then everyone is raptured.
It is quite likely that the two periods mark important events. I would suggest to you that the 30 day mark is likely the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which allows for the gathering of the Nations for judgment, primarily the lost who physically survive the Tribulation and are destroyed by Christ at the Judgment.
The 75th day past the end of the Tribulation is likely the establishment and commencement of the Millennial Kingdom. According to this we can see that the "short space" Satan receives at the end of the Millennial Kingdom is 75 days, for he is cast into the bottomless pit at Christ's return.
Every lost person that dies outside of Christ enters into "everlasting punishment." There is no escape from that. Do you think Hades is a not punishment? You might consult Luke 16 again if you don't.
I view this as primarily relevant to our own entrance into Heaven at death. The context deals with making sure our salvation, meaning testing ourselves to see whether we be in the faith or not. Not relevant to the Lord's Return, it refers to our entrance into the Kingdom Christ established when He came the first time.
Well, perhaps, if one leaves out so many relevant passages that also have to be calculated before rushing to a conclusion.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 14:50:05 GMT
Truth said (and this is from another thread, but his position is shallow enough that there isn't anything presented that might throw the discussions off):
I have actually, it's in the first post I did, which shows that paul was in expectation of the Rapture and not the Tribulation.
Actually I didn't, I presented passages from Acts, 2 Corinthians, and Revelation, so perhaps this is an indication of how carefully you read the posts. Perhaps if you quoted what I said instead of siomply reiterating opinions without a Scriptural basis you might avoid making mistakes like these. Of course, if you read the posts you might distance yourself from the worst position concerning the Rapture apart from the Amil and Preterist views.
Please show me the lie.
As I have shown in the other thread...we have periods of time after the Return of Christ. I have also shown that unbelievers are physically destroyed and feasted upon by carrion fowl and that those born again during the Tribulation remain alive physically.
Great question! First the believers in Christ, whether dead or alive are raised in glorified bodies and caught up, then we have the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11), then we have the resurrection of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 20), then we have the general resurrection that precedes the Great White Throne Judgment.
Again the problem with your timeline is that there is a thousand year period after the Lord's return to establish the Promised Kingdom. We know that your conclusion is erroneous because we have the Two Witnesses and the tribulation Martyrs raised well before this universe passes out of existence, so it is impossible to make these two resurrections one resurrection occurring on the same "day." We have a 3 1/1 year gap between these two resurrections alone.
So why don't you reconcile that from Scripture, and try to defend your position with more than opinion.Let's see some Scripture that denies the points I have just made.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 15:57:12 GMT
Truth said:
Why? Why not quote what I wrote and address the points made?
If you need help learning how to properly quote I will be very happy to teach you. I want every believer to be at his/her best.
A Parable? You need to learn what a parable is, and why the Lord's teaching here isn't a parable.
It is prophecy, and you are butchering it.
You can't remove the thousand year reign of Christ on this Earth, sorry. Why you would want to is evident, you are eat up with hatred for those who hold to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and have fallen prey to one of the greatest errors of Reformed Theology...A-millennialism. You do realize the Reformers adopted this view to separate themselves from Catholicism, right? You are doing the very same thing, adopting a view, not because you have studied Scripture and found out it is true...but because of your hatred. And hatred is fueled by the fires of Hell, my friend. You need to rethink your approach and stop being so sloppy in your studies. Reiterating opinions and proof-texting your position with a few out of context verses, nullifying clear statements in Scripture, and ignoring your antagonist's points...
...isn't going to accomplish anything.
Correct. That is because that is what Scripture teaches.
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Note that the First Resurrection is said by Scripture to be followed thousandousdand years. Now let's compare that with what you teach:
See the problem there? You are teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture states clearly.
The fact is that what is stated is that they go into everlasting punishment. That it looks forward to their being in Hell doesn't change the fact that we have numerous passages that show a physical Kingdom following the Lord's return. And all you can do with them is deny they say what they say.
Keep in mind that this is a concluding statement beginning in 24:1. It is a general statement illustrated by the parable that precedes it, and a warning concerning the period while the "man went into a far country" and returning and taking account of his servants. Who would the servants be? Those of Israel. Remember, Jesus came unto the Lost Sheep of Israel only, and His teachings have to be understood in a context of specific to Jews under the Law. The Lord makes numerous statements of Eternal Salvation and Judgment that were not understood by those He taught because the Gospel of Christ was still a Mystery. Your proof-text doesn't nullify His other teachings, though you do in your view.
I will ask again, when were these...
Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
...fulfilled?
And?
Don't you have anything other than this, which in no way denies the Rapture?
I agree, both look toward the general resurrection of the dead at the Great White Throne.
But...the resurrection of the Church was a Mystery when both of these passages were written. The revelation of a Mystery has to be included in a final conclusion, and you...aren't doing that.
And you are ignoring the fact that Daniel teaches a 75 day period...after the end of the Tribulation:
Daniel 12:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The Abomination of Desolation takes place at the middle of the Seventieth Week:
Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
So reconcile your view, again, with what Scripture actually teaches. If Matthew 25 is the Great White Throne Judgement...there can't be 75 days after that.
The Book of Life is not opened during the Tribulation. The Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation, there is a thousand year period, then God destroys those who join ranks with Satan,then the universe passes away...
...then the Great White Throne Judgment takes place, and it is at this time that the Book of Life is opened and the dead are judged according to the books (plural).
It's all right there in Revelation, and the only way to draw the conclusions you are is to remove what is written. That is what you are doing.
There is, it is written.
Here is the event:
Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
And again you forget that the Mystery of the RaptDanieln't revealed in daniel, it is revealed by Paul. So while my view leaves Scripture intact...yours doesn't, and is forced to remove Scripture to maintain your view. The general resurrection at the Great White Throne doesn't impact the Doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 15:59:29 GMT
We will call this poster G:
No, actually it isn't false, the Seventieth Week remains unfulfilled. We will get to why we can know it is a full seven years shortly, but first let's deal with the erroneous Preterist doctrine that "the prince who shall come is actually Christ.
Sorry, but the Lord didn't return in the First Century, which is a primary and basic principle of His teachings in Matthew 24-25.
So the real reason for this post is a commercial, lol.
You talk about people who hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture as ministers of Satan, so if we can determine that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the proper position (and we will)...
...what does that mean for you? I'll give you a hint:
Romans 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
I would agree, there are many passages that the 7 year Tribulation is derived from, namely Daniel 9:24-27, and numerous passages from Revelation.
Now, I ask you, is there any reason to exclude Tribulation Martyrs from this group?
The Lord did return, but not many years later, He returned when He began indwelling believers:
John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
But as for His physical Return we are told precicely what that is going to look like:
Revelation 19:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
I would think that if this had already happened then the earth should have passed away about 900 years ago. I would also think there would be something in the Historical Record about it.
Funny thing about that is that we saw greater tribulation in the 20th Century than we saw in the first. And what we didn't see in the First Century is half the world's population dying:
Revelation 6:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 9:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
To make the math easy, if the population was 900,000 and a third were slain, that would leave 600,000. Kill another 1/4 of that population you have 450,000 left, which is a total of half of the beginning population.
Keep in mind that this takes place within a seven year period, so if you are calculating the Lord's ministry into this...exactly when in History do we see all these deaths during His ministry?
The simple answer is...we don't.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 16:24:37 GMT
G said:
I agree, it is speaking about martyrs of Christ and the fact remains you cannot exclude Tribulation Martyrs from it.
Verses 28-29 do:
Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Quite possibly one of the worst conclusions one can draw in any topic of discussion in Scripture.
First, let's a start with the fact that the Seventy Weeks are prescribed for Daniel's people (v.24). That means Israel. Not a general decree, but specific.
Secondly, note that the destruction of the city and sanctuary is caused, not by Messiah, but by the people of the "prince to come." Did Christians destroy the city and the Sanctuary?
Third, we see that someone "confirms (strengthens)" the Covenant with many for one week (a seven year period, just as the rest are). Do you think this refers to Christ "confirming" the New Covenant by His death? If so we have some questions associated with that:
A. How is it that if Christ dies in the "middle of the Week" that your doctrine teaches the rest of the week fulfilled some 35 years later? Were any of the previous segments of the 70 Weeks divided or were they continuous?
B. What Covenant is in view? What Covenant was relevant to Daniel's People, Israel? The Covenant of Law, of course.
C. Did Christ "confirm" the New Covenant for a seven year period?
D. Did Christ "confirm" The Covenant of Law for a seven year period?
E. Did Christ destroy the city and the sanctuary within His ministry or in the 3 1/2 years following His Death, Burial, and Resurrection?
The obvious answers to these questions is no, He did not.
Lastly, Messiah being cut off ends with the end of the first 69 Weeks, so the seven years would have to follow His Resurrection. But you state "These 70 weeks were fulfilled during Christ's ministry." There is so much here that is irreconcilable that it is amazing that anyone would embrace such a position. The "prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 16:50:19 GMT
G said:
Simply not possible.
Daniel 9 King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
After 69 weeks Messiah is cut off, that is when it becomes possible for the Seventieth Week to begin.
No, actually they aren't, because Antichrist "confirms" the Covenant of Law for one week, and in the midst of it he reneges on his support. We see this also here:
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
During the first half of the Tribulation we see the Two Witnesses empowered and impervious to assault of any kind:
Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
This is the first 3 1/2 years (and keep in mind there are 360 days in a year according to the Jewish calendar).
Then the Antichrist is empowered for 3 1/2 years:
Revelation 13 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Antichrist, nor anyone else for that matter, can harm the two Witnesses within the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation, and when their ministry is finished they are killed:
Revelation 11:7-12 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Now I would think that if this had happened in the First Century we would have some record of it.
And in case you didn't notice, the Two Witnesses are raptured in v.12. What is significant about this rapture is that it denies that we can impose a meaning of sequence into the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20, which is another poor argument offered by those who oppose the only feasible view...a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Only in this view can we maintain all Prophecy and we don't have to rely on poor arguments that are easily shown to be error.
When the Lord reiterates Daniel's Prophecy...
Matthew 24:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...we see that He warns them to flee, and this correlates to another 3 1/2 year period in regards to people who flee when Antichrist assumes power:
Revelation 12:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The "woman" is Israel. These are people being obedient to the Lord's warning, and we see that they are preserved for...3 1/2 years.
The Tribulation will be seven years in fulfillment of Prophecy, and if we leave all Prophecy intact it is very easy to understand the events that take place.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 17:03:09 GMT
G said:
That's odd, because hundreds of years later when the Lord is speaking about the Abomination of Desolation...it hasn't happened yet.
Everything in Matthew 24 is referring to His Return, not something that happened in the past. I do view Daniel's Prophecy as relevant to Antiochus Epiphanes, but that was only a partial fulfillment, not the ultimate fulfillment the Lord refers to in Mattew 24.
Well, make up your mind:
Which of these that you say it is...is it?
No, I see a balanced exegesis of the text.
There is, Scripture is very clear about that. The only way one could miss it is if they have been indoctrinated into a false system that blinds them to what Scripture actually teaches.
Not only do you reject a very clear teaching in Scripture, you assume to state the Tribulation is soon. We simply don't know when it is to come to pass.
The Church won't be here, that is just a fact supported by all Prophecy. You will see that if you simply let Scripture state what it states. So do me a favor, show how the points made that show there will be a seven year Tribulation are wrong. Show how the error of your own doctrine isn't. Then we can draw a conclusion as to who exactly fits the bill of minister of Satan. Satan also adds and removes Scripture so he can support what he wants people to believe.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2019 15:18:56 GMT
Truth said:
Again, simply not possible. Long life spans will be irrelevant to the Eternal State. And since there has never been a time in which men who die at a hundred years are "children," we can leave Scripture intact and it all correlates with each other. Revelation 20 states there will be a thousand year Kingdom of Christ, and that corresponds perfectly with the Prophecy of the Old Testament.
Consider:
Jeremiah 23:5-8 King James Version (KJV)
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
While we can give this an application that extends to the Eternal State, we cannot deny the physical nature of the Promise. This speaks of the gathering of Israel from all lands and God bringing them into their own country, also promised here...
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The Eternal State is not the exclusive land of Israel, it will be inhabited by all nations of the Earth, because there will be One Fold and One Shepherd.
Note that the promise of the New Birth is also given to them, and if space permitted I would also post Ezekiel 37, where we also see God's promise of restoration and that He will give them life. I will just post a portion:
Ezekiel 37:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
"Then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
It hasn't happened yet. Israel will be brought back into her own land in fulfillment of these prophecies and Promise.
Paul didn't view them as fulfilled either:
Romans 11:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
In view is God bringing Israel into New Covenant relationship with Himself...as He promised He would. That hasn't happened. It hadn't happened in Paul's day, and we know it hasn't happened since. The "time of the Gentiles," which began when Israel was divided and conquered by Gentiles, and has continued until this day, will end when Israel has been brought into saving faith in Jesus Christ. Israel has began returning, but they are far from God...still. We aren't seeing what God said would happen...yet.
So while you might convince yourself that your doctrine is sound, I would again remind you that you are only including those statements of Scripture that seem to give support to your doctrine. Until you can reconcile all of it, without removing them from the Word of God, you will continue to hold to the erroneous doctrine you have embraced.
Continued...
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