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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 15:52:31 GMT
Okay, so a little tongue in cheek for the title, but ran across someone that rejects Paul's writings and we can see a definite problem that this creates. IT might surprise some to learn that there are many who think some people go way too far in regards to Paul's instructions to the Church. Being "Pauline" is viewed by some, such as this fellow, as idolatry, a replacing of Jesus Christ as Lord with Paul.
So in light of the recent reactions by a few Facebook groups and one forum (one of the three forums over the years I have been banned from, one being overturned after Moderation Review, another only a temporary ban (though I washed the dust from my feet of both anyway, lol)), I thought I would post a discussion where I intentionally hammer my antagonist because his doctrine is downright damnable. I don't expect anyone to comment on how I deal with this fellow because this is an Apologetics Forum, which though the founder is Reformed he is still a sound Apologist, particularly in areas dealing with certain cults and Atheists:
You are in grave error, on this point as well as your views that seem to come to the conclusion that anyone can be The Christ.
Here is a statement of Christ that does not come with an "if:"
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is no "if" for God sending His Son, Who is not a force, is not a way of life, He is Omnipotent God the Creator, and The Way of Life.
You can forget about making your "believing" the if as well, because you would not be able to believe unless God enlightened your mind. And the way it looks...He has not done that yet, because your doctrine departs from a Biblical view, and stands apart as foolishness. Perhaps if you began imposing something reasonable in your doctrine you might "graduate" to heresy. But as it is now...your doctrine is absurd and denies Who Christ is.
Perhaps if you understood the Mystery of the Gospel you might not make Christianity works-based religion. And we do not even need to get into Paul's teachings to show that man did not understand the Gospel of Christ. As a beginning text I give you...
Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Where is your "if" when it is not even possible for the disciples to believe the Gospel yet? This shows without controversy that there was no "if" in the Work of Christ.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 15:56:13 GMT
Sorry, but there is no "if" when natural man is reliant on God to enlighten his darkened heart and mind. Your formula is garbage, no worse than any of the works-based organizations you mentioned in the other thread. At least some of the men who started certain groups have an excuse...they were insane.
This is just one problem that arises from your cherry-picking of Scripture. You don't have a balanced view, and create your doctrine only from what fits your "Formula."
John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Has this been cancelled? The only way you could argue it has is if you deny the Deity of Christ...that He is Eternal God.
John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Who should the woman ask for eternal life?
John 14:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
You understand the concept of a Priest, don't you? He serves as a mediator between God and man. Jesus Christ is our Great High Priest and Advocate...
Hebrews 4:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Look at the link. The word is the same word that is used to speak of the Comforter, the paraklētos. A believer goes to the Advocate and then the Advocate goes to the One He mediates for.
You need to seriously rethink your "formula."
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:00:16 GMT
One doesn't "graduate" to be a son of God, one is baptized into Christ...
...and then the growth process begins.
And no-one ever "makes the grade," because sin will always hinder us in one way or another so long as we have not been redeemed from the flesh.
A "graduation?" You realize that a graduation represents an accomplishment, right? Do you remember when the Lord states "...it is finished?"
His Baptism was meant to fulfill righteousness in relation to the Law. You remember He was made under the Law...right? Are you not aware, seeing you only accept Jesus' Own words to formulate (pun intended) doctrine, that Jesus Christ ministered within the Law? Have you ever once considered why it is that Jesus Christ came...only to the Lost Sheep of Israel?
Because His ministry was for them based on the revelation they already had. He was not preaching the Gospel of Christ but the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Matthew 3:13-16 King James Version (KJV)
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
I would suggest you back up a little and see the Baptisms the Lord performs:
Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
And I would suggest you learn that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment when we are baptized into God, and indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are One.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:01:25 GMT
Another member comments on a statement I made:
You may be right. Louis Farrakhan, in February, proclaimed he was the Messiah, the real Jesus.
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:05:25 GMT
They sound as they have a much better understanding than you do.
This is true.
No, Christ in you is the riches of the glory of the Mystery that was not revealed in past Ages:
Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
We see it referred to here as well:
Ephesians 5:25-32 King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Jesus Christ is God manifest in flesh, the Eternal Son, and not an "anointing."
No, Jesus was Christ/Messiah because God foresaw man's need, foretold His Redemptive Plan, created a body in Mary, took that body upon Himself, died for our sin, and arose again that men might begin to have eternal life.
Yes, actually He is. An anointing cannot die and rise again.
No, actually He is God.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:09:14 GMT
We are no different than Jesus Christ?
My friend...you really need some instruction from Paul.
What we can say is that your doctrine is not Christian. I am going to guess that you think you don't sin. Would you mind verifying that?
One problem your doctrine has...He was One with the Father before He manifested in flesh. You weren't, and still aren't.
John 17 King James Version (KJV)
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Stones in glass houses and all that...
This is true for many believers, because few study Scripture on their own. But at least for many of them they are being led away from nonsense like this simply by learning the basic truths of Scripture.
You deny Paul as an inspired writer...not even Peter-someone else in the habit of putting his foot in his mouth-did that.
So your doctrine has Christ...and Jesus.Fabulous.
Congratulations, you have embraced the doctrine of cults.
That may be because Christians are religious. We are in a relationship with God. Do you not know that God was in Christ...reconciling the world unto Himself? The obvious truth being that prior to the Atonement of the Cross no man was reconciled to God.
Your religion teaches that man reconciles himself to God, whereas Scripture teaches that it is God that brings about reconciliation.
That's not a formula, it's merely religious effort. It is a sure ticket to Eternal Separation.
You need the righteousness of Christ, not your own.
I can full understand why you use a lower case h, because it isn't God you are speaking about, for God does not create religious people, He adopts sons.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2019 16:11:08 GMT
Sometimes a direct approach is the only way to get someone's attention, and sometimes we may have to yank some chains.
Okay...maybe we need to do that more often than not, lol.
We will see how this goes. I see no reason not to classify the doctrine being espoused as error, so let's see if this fellow will address the points made and address the Scripture presented to support those points.
God bless.
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