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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 14:42:33 GMT
Poster 4:
Agreed.
Agreed.
And seeing you succumbed we still see that you could not...resist, lol.
I am not interested in debating doctrines of Calvinism, I am only interested in looking at the topic of the OP.
Best not to use slurs, my friend, this makes both of you look bad. Nothing is gained.
Sorry, no. Calvin didn't invent Regeneration, it is one of the most important Doctrines of Scripture. And one highly misunderstood. Regeneration is simply an English rendering of "born again." Where Calvin goes astray is teaching, first, that God has always regenerated men so they can have faith, and second...that He has always done this. Regeneration did not begin until men began to receive Eternal Life through the Eternal Indwelling of God and our being placed in Him. This is the baptism with the holy Ghost:
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Note they were saved by the Gospel (v.14), and this shows that Cornelius was saved at the time he received the Holy Ghost. He was a just man prior to his salvation, just as Abraham was:
Acts 10:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Cornelius already believed in God and acted upon his faith. But he still needed to be eternally redeemed through Christ and be baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is the process by which we are baptized into Christ.
Note also in vv.17-18 that God gave them this salvation as a gift, and it is God...that granted repentance. And this was repentance unto life, Eternal Life that is, the very thing the Lord states He was sent to give men in John 3:14-16, as well as in many other various teachings of His.
Not to the Topic of the OP.
Agreed. It is God's blessing on all men. All men will be held accountable and not a single man will say "But...you didn't tell me!" God gives every man enough revelation to be saved or damned. Those who go into Hell will do so because theyected God's grace.
Agreed. Only within the Ministry of the the Comforter, when God is enlightening the heart, can one know the truth and respond. I would view surrender as the better choice to describe our part because God is the one that grants repentance unto (eternal) life. Just because men repent does not mean they surrender. Judas is a good example of this. Another is Pharaoh, who was given enough space to repent, and he did, but it didn't last. His ultimate response was rejection of God's Word and His messenger. He responded with murderous intent.
Agreed, there were no Christians until Pentecost, when God began to baptize men into Christ through the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Thanks for the response.
God bless. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 15:12:34 GMT
Our Catholic friend:
On the contrary, like a sheep dog leading sheep around, I am driving you to the topic. You actually get close a couple of times, but you are so interested in preaching at people that you still miss the mark. Please, just read the OP. I want you to be a part of this discussion, because Catholic error is the basis for Protestant and Evangelical error. But the error you are introducing just creates...
...more error to deal with, lol.
So if it makes you feel better to make hollow charges, okay, but try to get on topic.
You really should learn how to post. All you have to do is copy and paste the code that looks like this (QUOTE=poster;n59138540) in front of what is said and (/QUOTE) at the end of what is said to create the quote. I have replaced the brackets [ ] in the above code with parentheses ( ) to disable the code.
Secondly, quoting what I say without actually giving a relevant response still falls short of the mark. Focus, my friend, and perhaps we can get to the bottom of Temporal Justification.
It's a question, and asked so you and other members can comment on it. I already take the position above is true, because Catholicism erroneously ascribed an eternal context to the justification of the Old testament Saint, and martin Luther recognized that Romans 4 is pretty clear that Abraham was justified by belief and faith apart from works. The problem isn't that one of you guys is right and the other wrong, the problem is you are both wrong and need to recognize that both James 2 and Romans 4...are taking about justification, not salvation, not Eternal Salvation, and not Eternal Redemption through Christ.
That is the OP.
It's not a new question, it is what the OP asks:
As a side note, what I did was copy the above from the OP by highlighting this portion with my mouse, then hitting the control button simultaneously with the C button, then pasted it by left clicking my mouse where I wanted it to go, then hitting the control button simultaneously with the V button Then you can highlight the portion again and click on the quotation mark in the control prompts at the top of the response box you are tyoing in. If you don't have these when you hit "quote" to respond to someone, just hit the A that is at the top right of the response box and they will appear.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 15:27:31 GMT
Our Catholic friend:
There's a reason why he is quoting the Old Testament...he is making the point that Scripture concluded that there were none righteous, not a single one. He makes the point of man's depravity in relation to God, and then he makes the point that at this time, now...God is justifying men through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Abraham was declared righteous...based on what he did. The Gentiles of Romans 2:13-15 were justified by performing the works of the Law, just as all who are doers rather than hearers were justified.
But that has changed in Christ Jesus. It is the righteousness of God that is made manifest, and men are freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, not in the works of the Law (v.20).
You really need to step back and realize just how foolish the statements you make are. You are trying to limit this to "the fool" and completely ignoring what Paul states:
Romans 3:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Not only do we see "all" in there, that is the overriding point you are missing. And why? Because you seek to justify Catholicism and it's error?
Does the word "none" escape you as well?
If you would read your Bible you would see why Catholicism is in error concerning Justification, and...why Protestants carried that error over into their doctrine.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 15:46:05 GMT
Our Catholic friend:
It has nothing to do with saints, it's just a fact.
You go off on a tangent and miss the teaching Paul gives us in Galatians 3, which shows that there is a "before and after" concerning men having faith in Christ. There is a before to the coming of Christ and the redemption of men from the Law and in Christ. It was through His Work that both Jew and Gentile were made one in Him. If you would just try to be relevant to what is said you would spare yourself, and me, all of the erroneous conclusions you draw. The above text has nothing to do with what the saint does, it speaks of what God has done.
But that's just one problem with Catholicism, it indoctrinates men into a works-based mentality that makes them view the themselves as the center of the universe.
Precisely because Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. If I said you were saved by Superman through holding onto his cape as he flew out of harms way...what saved you?
But many teach we are saved by faith, and that is error. Faith is a part of salvation, but it is not the means. The Cross of Christ and the Resurrection are the means of salvation.
The above is hypothetical, men cannot receive eternal life through the Law:
Galatians 3:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
In other words, if anything could have given life it would have been the law, but the problem is that despite the fact men could keep the Law to a certain extent, Scripture still concludes the same thing we see in Romans 3...all men are under sin.
Now, concerning "Faith and Works still point at GOD as means," this is one of the primary damnable doctrines of Catholicism. While it may be true men can be justified by belief, faith, and works...
...they cannot be saved by belief, faith, and works, they can only be saved by grace that employs belief, faith and works in those who are saved.
Catholicism is never going to change this:
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Paul makes it clear that if a man works for something it isn't grace:
Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
And no man can make God a debtor, because all men are dependent on His grace for salvation.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 15:59:55 GMT
Our Catholic friend:
We would never have died a physical death if the Lord hadn't been crucified?
My friend...all men were dead until Christ came to bestow eternal life. This is seen in regards to Moses, said to be dead by Christ because he had not received eternal life in his lifetime:
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
And the simple fact is that no man was believing on Christ, His Death, or His Resurrection until after His Resurrection.
I'd agree, because no man understood Who He was until the Comforter was sent.
Please, spare me the twaddle.
None of this even makes sense. God sent His Son at the proper time to redeem men. This is why we call Messianic Prophecy...Prophecy. Because it foretold what God would do at a future time.
Jesus Christ isn't paying anyone off, He is saving people by His grace and by no other method. We are saved by grace through...the Cross and resurrection.
Nothing else.
That idea is bologna, lol. The Christian does not lose his joy through suffering.
Again, please don't waste time with irrelevant statements. While you might be impressed with yourself, it's wasting my time and space in this thread.
More twaddle. Christ did not go to Hell, He went to sheol/Hades. No man has gone to Hell yet, and will not until the Great White Throne Judgment.
?
Romans 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
I agree, and hope that with sincerity you will begin to address the topic of the OP. Instead of trying to justify the errors of Catholicism and Protestants.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 16:36:30 GMT
Our Catholic friend, a second response, and I would point out at this time...he is still not addressing the topic of the OP. So I am forced to do a little chain yanking, and why not...
...it's Saturday!
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 16:54:50 GMT
Our Catholic friend:
I don't need to read anything by Martin Luther in order to know that the leadership in the Catholic Church was corrupt. Another point would be indulgences, and the Catholic Church's exploitation of the fear of God in those that were supposed to be being cared for by these false shepherds. We see the same corruption in all groups today, and in some groups a particular penchant for sheering the flock.
Both Catholics and Protestants literally murdered each other, so if you are trying to correlate either to my own views you are wasting your time. My doctrine stands in contrast to both, and until you actually focus on the OP you aren't going to understand why both need to be addressed. So don't hold your breath waiting for me to defend the church fathers of the Reformation. And for Pete's sake (your first Pope) please...get on topic.
Is that a fact? Delusions of grandeur much?
but that's typical for those with works-based mindsets, everything is about them, and they cannot focus on the Word of God. I charged you nor anyone else with anything, lol, I simply asked a question and then made the above comment.
Show me Original Sin from Scripture, my friend.
God didn't lay it out, He laid out what He intended us to know, which is the reality of man's condition:
Romans 5:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Death, not sin...passed upon all men.
Man's problem is that he is conceived and born separated from God, and this is why he sins. Had Adam not sinned men would still be in the Agrden, living without death due to the Tree of Life. But because Adam was separated from God by his sin and thrust out of the Garden...all men die.
So I ask you again...what sin does the babe in the womb commit?
A saint naturally eats of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Could you back that up with something?
I agree, God's concern is for the welfare of His creation, Mankind. He put them over His Own well being in taking on flesh to suffer at the hands of those He came to redeem.
The "original sin" is Adam and Eve's disobedience to God's will. That's where it ends.
And Taco Bell use to be made out of bricks.
So what is the topic of the OP again?
This I will do in perfection...in my glorified state. Or, when I die and go to be with the Lord, whichever comes first, but I'm still holding out for the Rapture.
I agree, so if you don't mind...try bringing some Scripture as well as sound doctrine into your preaching. You can start by addressing the Scripture of the OP, and if you disagree with something...present Scripture that denies what I say. See how easy that is?
To make sure they don't end up in Purgatory? lol
Physician...heal thyself. And until then, please stop wasting space in this thread with your preaching on non relevant issues. If you want to justify the Catholic Chrurch and her doctrine and practice, start a thread. If you want to justify the eternal context of the justification of the Old Testament Saint...bring the Scriptural Basis for it.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2019 17:28:33 GMT
Poster 4 said:
Sorry, but Peter defines what the baptism with the Holy Ghost is, and it is not empowerment:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
A few things to consider:
1. Peter spoke the words (the Gospel, see Acts 10) by which they were saved, not empowered (v.14);
2. The Holy Ghost "falling on them" is identical to what happened "at the beginning," Pentecost, so the disciples were saved at Pentecost by being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (v.15);
3. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, by Peter, credited as the fulfillment of the Lord's statement in Acts 1:4-5, which also helps us further clarify that the disciples were not "saved" in a New Covenant sense (v.16);
4. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is called the same gift as received by the disciples at Pentecost (v.17);
5. The gift is received by those who believed on Christ, and the disciples did not truly believe the Gospel until it was revealed to them by the very Spirit they were given at Pentecost (v.17);
6. Being Baptized with the Holy Ghost is simultaneous with God granting repentance unto life, not being empowered.
Was Cornelius saved in a New Testament/Covenant sense by following Judaism? Des it not say here that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when men are saved and receive life?
Most denominations and Theology Systems do teach the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a subsequent event of empowerment for one already saved and indwelt by God, but Scripture does not. You can read Acts 10 and see that Cornelius was saved by the preaching of the Gospel, that is the whole point of this account, to show that Gentiles are being placed in Christ as well as Jews.
As far as viewing John 20 as the Lord "giving the disciples the Spirit," we know that isn't the case because...
John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2019 14:41:14 GMT
Poster 4 said:
So the Lord is in error in John 16:7? He didn't have to go away in order for the Holy Spirit to be sent? If you read John 14 you will see that the "going away" is the Lord returning to Heaven, His Father's House.
Secondly, I have shown that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is defined as the moment of salvation, and when men receive repentance...unto life:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I see that you have not addressed the points, and until you do, there isn't much point in trying to argue a reiteration of the same point already addressed.
Here they are again:
A few things to consider:
1. Peter spoke the words (the Gospel, see Acts 10) by which they were saved, not empowered (v.14);
2. The Holy Ghost "falling on them" is identical to what happened "at the beginning," Pentecost, so the disciples were saved at Pentecost by being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (v.15);
3. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, by Peter, credited as the fulfillment of the Lord's statement in Acts 1:4-5, which also helps us further clarify that the disciples were not "saved" in a New Covenant sense (v.16);
4. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is called the same gift as received by the disciples at Pentecost (v.17);
5. The gift is received by those who believed on Christ, and the disciples did not truly believe the Gospel until it was revealed to them by the very Spirit they were given at Pentecost (v.17);
6. Being Baptized with the Holy Ghost is simultaneous with God granting repentance unto life, not being empowered.
After addressing the points and showing how it is that the Spirit was sent before Christ went away we can progress to more points as to why viewing the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a subsequemt event of empowerment is erroneous.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 13:15:50 GMT
Poster 4:
No, because the context of His "going away" is not to Hades, it is to Heaven:
John 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
When Christ arose did He take the disciples to heaven?
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The implication is that the Comforter will be sent while He, Christ, is not present with them, and that is what we see in Acts 1, the Lord returns to Heaven and the Comforter is sent a few days later.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
The Comforter, Who is the Promised Spirit of Prophecy, could not come until the Son returned unto the Father.
It's not my intepretation, it is the only logical conclusion to draw from the Lord's teaching.
Here are a few more statements within this lesson to consider:
John 15:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Note that Christ teaches a correlation between the coming of the Comforter and the disciples bearing witness of Christ. He will say that again:
Acts 1:4-8 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Being Baptized with the Holy Ghost is said to be something He taught them of. What did He teach? That the Comforter would be sent after He returned to the Father. Testifying of Christ is what the Holy Spirit would do, and the disciples...after the Holy Ghost came upon them. So the question is, was this what happened to Cornelius when he was saved? The answer is yes, the Holy Ghost came upon Cornelius by the words which saved him, he was granted repentance unto life, and this is the same thing that happened to the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. That is when people are added to the Church. Because it is at that time people began to be baptized into Christ, immersed into God. Cornelius is not an example of men being empowered after salvation, he is an example that Gentiles are being saved exactly the same way Jews were. Everyone knows and acknowledges that.
Yet for some reason everyone wants to construe v.8 above as a subsequent event of the Holy Spirit...coming upon people.
And I would also add that if you want to deny that Peter is defining the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and using the Lord's Own definition, please post the Scripture and provide the commentary to show how it should be interpreted. You are ignoring what is clearly stated by Peter and arguing apart from that.
Back to the Lord's teaching:
John 16:4-7 King James Version (KJV)
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Again we see a clear statement that the Son is returning to the Father...not going to Hades.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
It's not a coincidence that the disciples immediately begin preaching the Gospel at Pentecost, because another basic teaching of the New Testament is that the Comforterm the Spirit of Truth and Grace is the One that reveals the Gospel to the hearts of men.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
"Going away" is not a reference to dying and going to Hades, but a reference of leaving the world and returning to the Father.
Like I said, most Systems teach the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a subsequent event of empowerment, but that is not the case. Again I would ask you to show in Acts 11:13-18 why Cornelius is not saved by the "words which save" and he doesn't receive repentance unto life, but is "empowered" when the Holy Ghost falls on him while Peter preaches the Gospel.
The Holy Spirit is the One that reveals the Gospel to men:
1 Peter 1:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1 Corinthians 2:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The Gospel is the Hidden Wisdom of God, kept secret since the world began. It was not revealed to past generations or Ages, to the Saints or the sons of men. It is now revealed to men through the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2019 13:35:47 GMT
Poster 5:
The topic of discussion centers on whether the justification of Romans 4 should be equated with Eternal Redemption, not a discussion of the Spirit of God and When He "showed up."
But since you bring it up, I don't know of anyone who has even a passing understanding of the Bible who think "God didn't show up until Jesus made the scene." What you might be confusing is that there are those, like myself, who know that men were not eternally indwelt by God in Eternal Union until Christ died, arose, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter to establish New Covenant relationship with Himself.
Jesus "didn't know God until He was 30?"
My friend, the Son is God. At no time did He cease to be God. God took upon Himself flesh, and His glory was veiled in that flesh. And while He incurred limitations due to the flesh at no time did He "not know God."
Sorry, but we that believe on Jesus Christ receive that which no man received prior to Pentecost. To name a few...
1. The Promised Spirit, which is the eternal indwelling of God that takes place when men are baptized into Christ;
2. Eternal Life, which no man, including Adam, received prior to the Cross (the Old Testament Saints received this when Christ died in their stead);
3. Remission of Sins on an eternal basis;
4. Reconciliation: we know Adam was not reconciled, he was separated from God, and by this separation caused all men to be separated and thus to sin. Men sin because they are separated, rather than the popular view, men are separated because they sin.
According to the Word of God He was, so I'll stick with that.
Adam created this idea?
Twaddle.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2019 14:07:55 GMT
Poster Six:
Being "faithful to His righteousness" doesn't contribute to Eternal salvation. The portion of the OP you quoted deals with the understanding of "Temporal Justificcation" versus "ETernal Justification." The former is based on what men do and applies to their standing in a temporal context (which dose pertain to their eternal destiny but does not determine it), the latter speaks in an eternal context in which a declaration is made that has eternal import.
The quote also challenges what has become normal in Protestant and Evangelical teaching, that men are saved by faith, and this to the point that grace is overlooked, and faith repalces grace as the cause of salvation. Faith is a result of God's grace and the salvation He freely bestows, not a cause for it, and not a cause for God to bestow grace. God does not bestow His grace on men because He knows they are worthy, but bestows grace because no man is worthy.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2019 14:21:55 GMT
Poster 7:
We see the implication that the Garden was on Earth...
Genesis 2:8-14 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
The placement seems to be in relation to the land and ground just created, and the rivers flow into known regions on the Earth.
But...I do not completely disagree to the concept of the Garden being in some way separate from the Earth itself.
New Jerusalem will serve, I believe, as a "bridge" between Heaven and Earth. About the best analogy I can think of would be having a room in which an aquarium resides, and while the aquarium is part of the room and the house it is in, it is it's own little world. This is only speculation, though.
Something else I speculate about is entrance to the City:
Revelation 22:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I wouldn't be dogmatic about it, and clearly state this is speculation, but I often think that the above is a reference to believers who live patterns of sin in their lifetimes, and while they were Redeemed, their sin causes them to lose the reward of entrance to the City. For example, a man leaves his wife and marries his mistress and dies in that state. A person indulges in drug and alcohol abuse. They love their children or spouse more than God. Pathological liars. Saved and in the Eternal State but have lost rewards they would have received had they not continued in unbroken patterns of sin in their lives.
Again...just speculation.
God bless.
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