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Post by Admin on Apr 4, 2019 15:49:37 GMT
Examining Temporal Justification
Just as an introduction to the topic of discussion in this post I would point out the centuries-old battle between Catholics and Protestants/Evangelicals concerning James 2 and Romans 4. A simple point to make is that we have in Romans 2 a statement of Paul's concerning Gentiles being justified because they "performed the works of the Law:"
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
The idea that anyone was justified by the works of the law is rejected by my antagonist, but the simple fact is that is what Paul states. So in the following, we are going to look at his claim that "no-one can keep the Law." I will point out at the beginning that while no-one can keep the Law perfectly, or to the point their need for a Savior is nullified, we don't nullify the fact that God commanded Israel to keep the Law, and judged them when they did not, thus nullifying my antagonist's argument (which leads to a syllogistic conclusion concerning Temporal Justification):
I am not sure how it is this fellow comes to this conclusion when there has been many passages presented to underscore Temporal Justification. It is quite obvious that basic truths of Scripture, basic principles that are found in the Law...are simply not known to him.
And I will interject at this point that I see this as the "conditioning" many receive in Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical groups. For the Catholic, opposition to grace alone and faith alone drives them into a need to see works in every passage, whereas for our other two groups it is a need to deny works. Folks, we have to balance Scripture and leave what is stated in place or we are going to end up like this fellow in a syllogistic system of error.
I would at this time go on to what couldn't be discussed due to this fellow's insistence that his magic bullet response ended the discussion. You will see that in more detail because this post is again the same argument. And you will notice that he has still never responded to the points already made.
Consider:
Romans 10 King James Version (KJV)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
In view is Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. How we know this is based on a couple indicators given us.
First, we see the contrast between the righteousness of God and the righteousness Israel sought after. Does it imply that the basic principle of keeping the Law is made void? Not at all, we simply see that in view is a rote practice of the Law to be righteous which misses the righteousness the Law was intended to bring. For example, "THou shalt not kill" has in view having love for your neighbor, not simply the matter of not physically murdering someone. The Lord clarifies that if one hate their brother without a cause they are guilty of murder, and this is how the righteousness of God is not attained to by those who practice a ritualistic pattern of keeping the Law. They were ignorant of the basic principles that the Law presented.
Secondly, we have only to consult the Law itself and see what it is that God has said, and we will look at three passages found when the (Covenant of) Law was established, and centuries later during the Kingdom years, and then finally a look at a correlating New Testament passage:
Leviticus 18 King James Version (KJV)
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
Is it really rational to nullify...what God has said? The argument presented by several members of this particular Forum (and we are going to see that on most Forums, I believe) is that keeping the Law was impossible. That is the entire basis of this fellow's rejection of Temporal Justification. But what does the Scripture say? "If a man does these things...he shall live in them." Sound remotely familiar?
Romans 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
We see this contrasted with what they are not to do...
Leviticus 18 King James Version (KJV)
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
Do this and you will live. One of the most basic principles of the Law. Many designate the Covenant of Law as the only "if/then" Covenant God established. "If you do as I have commanded you will live. If you do not you will surely die."
Now here is the most important issue I want to sink in...this is not an eternal context, it is temporal. What happened to those who rejected the Law?
Hebrews 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
They were put to death physically. What do we see in the Gospels? Charges of not keeping the Law and an attempt (which at times was successful, such as in the case of Stephen)to execute the penalty of the Law.
What was the provision for Man since everyone broke the Law in some way? Vicarious death of animals, the penalty of death exacted on them instead of the sinner. There's nothing really hard about this, and we cannot nullify Scripture in an attempt to justify the doctrines of men.
Our second text is found here:
Ezekiel 20:10-16 King James Version (KJV)
10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.
Anyone that thinks they can nullify the fact that God expected Israel to keep the Law simply hasn't a grasp of this basic principle. We don't overlook the fact that the Law was meant to create faith through the knowledge that the Law cannot be kept perfectly, but God never expected perfection from an imperfect people, but knew that it would be Himself that supplied Perfection to Man (Hebrews 10:14), and this through the Cross of Christ.
It is pretty evident in our first passager that God gave the Law expecting men to keep it. It is pretty clear here that Israel was judged because they did not keep it. So the nullification of the principle of Temporal Justification by our fine friend falls short of even a basic understanding of the Word of God.
Now let's take a look at this principle and see an New Testament witness to GOd's judgment against Israel for their transgression of the Law:
Hebrews 8:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
The very reason for the New Covenant is stated here as a necessity because they did not continue in His Covenant. Not "could not keep His Covenant." They are held responsible for breaking the (Covenant of) Law, just as we saw in Hebrews 10:28. Do we think God holds one accountable for something they cannot accomplish? It would be foolish to do so, seeing that God has not even held men accountable for the very separation they suffer from Him. He has always given men the ability to accomplish His will, and held only those who reject His will accountable.
Again, we have to clarify that we are not talking about men keeping the Law as a means of salvation, that is simply not a possibility. But at the same time we do not, as this fellow has done, nullify basic principles to support a tired and erroneous doctrine of men. That doctrine is salvation by faith, which is works-based salvation just as erroneous as salvation by faith and works. Salvation is and always be by the grace of God, bestowed on those unworthy of God's regard, but given it just the same. What we are talking about is God's demand to obey His will (and this is found in all Ages) and the fact that there is a temporal aspect to this and an eternal. In the temporal you and I are fully capable of obedience, and when we do not obey it is usually because we determine to sin. That does not impact God's gift of salvation because despite the fact we sin before we are saved, and we sin after we are saved (and anyone denying that is, as John states, a liar)...yet God still loves/d us enough to die for us, to take the penalty of sin upon Himself that we might have eternal life in and with Him.
One last passage, which I guess was hidden from my antagonist, seeing his claim is that my view is based on one verse:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Do we take this to mean they kept the Law perfectly? Not at all. They are righteous (justified)...before the Lord. Just as Abraham was. Within a few verses, Zacharias will be struck dumb...for unbelief (vv.18-20). We know they are both still in need of the Redemption Christ will bring. If the declaration of righteousness held an eternal context why would it still be necessary for Christ to die? Their righteousness has a horizontal application, just as the righteousness of any man who has not been freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus is. So we return to the question, why do Catholics, Protestants, and Evangelicals all impose an eternal context into James 2 and Romans 4? Particularly when we see that all Old Testament Saints died in faith...not receiving the very promises concerning Eternal Salvation?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 14:44:20 GMT
Actually, understanding escapes you, because all it takes is a review of what has already been discussed to see I am the only one between us that is putting forth the effort to both present my own views as well as respond to yours. Like I said before, you need to learn to talk with people, not at them. You have been rude in, first, dragging your erroneous beliefs into this thread and seeking to disrupt and derail the topic of discussion. Secondly, you have refused to address the points made or answer the questions posed to you.
Lastly, you have repeatedly ignored my request that you get on topic or go somewhere else with your views...no-one is interested in your position concerning Paul. It is absurd.
As I said before, get on topic or I will be forced to report your disruption of this thread. I am looking for serious debaters who can actually focus on the topic.
As is typical with false teachers...they are the ones who do no sin. You are like God and no-one else is, and they will not be unless they receive your doctrine.
Good luck with that...somewhere else.
You are the one shutting down discussion. A discussion involves more than you speaking at people. You need to answer some of these questions, GM. Here is one that is relevant to your doctrine:
Oh, so you have a problem with people not answering questions, good to know. It's humorous that you and Danno have an identical approach to discussion. The resemblance is amazing, as well as how you respond to points made that deny your doctrine.
Here is one for you:
Galatians 3:21-27 King James Version (KJV)
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith whichshouldafterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of youashave been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Paul teaches a "before and after" concerning faith in Christ. It's no mystery why faith in Christ wasn't available...the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16; Colossians 1:25-27). Something else many miss is that men were not baptized into Christ prior to His return to Heaven and the sending of the Comforter. That basic truth is seen in vv.26-27 above, as well as John 1:11-13, and is mentioned here:
Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
The question for you in this, since you seek to teach Paul as a "sinner" instead of an inspired writer, is why, if you think Paul is saying women are under the Law (which has been shown to be nonsense) does he teach of God sending His Son...
...to redeem them that were under the Law?
This is relevant to the OP in that we are discussing whether Abraham's Justification, as well as others'...has an eternal context.
Now answer this question and return to topic. I don't want to hear any more about Paul not being an inspired writer.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 14:44:29 GMT
Another typical false teacher characteristic...they are always the victims.
It would be one thing if you were shunned without an address of your error, but something entirely different when your error has been addressed, not only in this thread, but in others.
And as I said before...you are nothign like Christ, because Christ honored the Word of God...you deny it. You have been shown how the context of your proof texts escapes you on a number of occasions, yet you still refuse to address those points or answer the questions posed to you.
Here's another question you refused to answer:
Here is a response to your doctrine, also ignored:
Do you see my attempt to have a discussion with you, GM...and your refusal to do so? And you want to say I want to dictate to people?
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 14:44:38 GMT
You are right, and wrong, depending on which way the wind is blowing in your world...men are not saved by believing. They are saved by the grace of God alone.
There is no faith and works until God sheds His grace on men.
Actually Justification is freely given to men by grace:
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The first thing to understand is that Eternal Salvation-which is the ultimate focus of the OP-is given to men as a gift. They do not repent to receive it...
...they repent because they receive it.
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Notice that doesn't say through faith or works, it states men are freely justified on an eternal basis by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Now, because this is as close as you have come to the topic of the OP, I want you to respond to what I have said here. That is what it takes to make a conversation. Do not give me "I don't follow Paul!" as an excuse, because I don't embrace the doctrines of atheists yet I can still address them examining their own teachers' statements.
Answer.
Actually the natural becomes the supernatural, because Eternal Salvation results in the natural man receiving the spiritual things of God, such as Eternal Union through Reconciliation, and Regeneration through that Eternal Union.
Your doctrine is backwards.
I don't see that you are veery good at making the supernatural natural, because nothing you teach is based on the Word of God, it is based on the rationalizations (not realizations, lol) of GM.
Now answer these questions, GM. I would love to have a discussion on the OP.
You state that "Salvation only comes through the atonement" and...
...I agree.
Now consider when the Atonement took place, and that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, which as we see throughout the New Testament (including the Word of Christ)...
...didn't take place until Christ obtained Eternal Redemption for us. Understand that in the context of the OP and that Abraham was not eternally redeemed until Christ died in His stead, thus forcing the conclusion that his justification is in the same context that Zacharias and Elisabeth's were in:
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 15:08:15 GMT
This is a Catholic I know from another forum:
Not sure who you are calling "you guys." If you read the OP and were actually responding on topic you might have noticed that I am in opposition to both the Catholic as well as the Protestant/Evangelical error of imposing an eternal context into the justification of Abraham.
Now...do you have something relevant to the OP? I am trying to help you remove yourself from the 500 year old squabbling of children. Pay attention or go back to baptistboard.
No, it is not specifically a sin not to have faith. What faith does the unborn child in the womb have? A sin nature? Show me that in Scripture.
Man's problem is his separation from God...that is why he sins. And God is just to charge men with the sins they commit, not the sins of their fathers. Even if they are "church fathers" One is guilty of the sin of church fathers when they refuse to read the Word of God and learn what is actually taught, rather than being indoctrinated into centuries-old errors.
Sorry, but Catholics make a lot of points in stark contrast to the commandments of God. For example, while not all Catholics worship Mary, the fanatical and extremist among Catholics do, calling her "Co-Redemptrix."
salvation is only possible by the grace of God and He does not save people to have faith in Mary, but in Jesus Christ the First and the Last, the Only Savior.
But this isn't a thread to deal with the many various heresies of the Catholic Church, but simply one error shared by both Catholic and Protestant. Martin Luther was correct that leadership was corrupt, as well as Doctrine and Practice, but he didn't go far enough in regards to Justification. That is what the topic of the OP is, and what we should be discussing, so please don't preach your twaddle in your attempt to justify Catholicism. It isn't going to work, and I will show you that in Scripture.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 15:21:52 GMT
Again, the Catholic Poster:
But...we aren't defining faith, lol.
We're discussing Justification and the contexts found in various passages.
It's as simple as that.
You deny what you are saying in your closing remarks:
It's all about what men do. That is your doctrine and it seeps through the lip service you give to the Doctrine of the bible, which is that nothing men do contributes to Eternal Salvation, it only has relevance to rewards and lack thereof.
It has everything to do with personal knowledge...faith is the response to the revelation God provides to men.
The point of Faith Alone has a temporal context in Romans 4, something the Catholic Church and Martin Luther failed to understand. Where Abraham is without controversy justified by belief and faith alone...most impose "salvation." It isn't speaking of salvation, it is speaking about Justification in a temporal context, even as these do...
Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
When the context is soteriological we can easily recognize it as such:
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Redemption is in regards to the Work of Christ, and our justification on an eternal basis is by grace...and freely given.
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This is speaking of Eternal Salvation. By grace through faith, unlike the popular notion that men are saved by faith through grace. And that is what most unintentionally conclude, and teach and preach. Not even the faith is of ourselves.
Quite the opposite of...
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 15:35:46 GMT
The Catholic again:
It does in a context of Justification, because Abraham was justified by...faith alone. That faith was a result of his belief in the revelation provided by God. Namely the Promises of God, which, by the way...he died not receiving:
Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Irrelevant to the Topic of Discussion. Please try to be relevant to the OP.
Twaddle. One might be confident in false gods and Hate God, but those whose confidence is in the Lord shall not be put to shame, and their confidence will be...justified.
You nullify the point of the Writer of Hebrews, we have confidence in...things not seen.
We see afar off our glorification, for example, and our hope is sure that He will fulfill this promise.
Yes, glorification, for example, is a certainty. We have absolute confidence in the promises of God, even as Abraham did, despite a complete understanding of the Promises themselves. For example, he only knew of the blessing through the seed, but was not aware of the Blessing of The Seed, Jesus Christ. That is because the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, the hidden wisdom of God, kept secret since the world began.
This is one of Catholicism's biggest errors...that men can be "disqualified." That is why you teach a works-based salvation, my friend, and will always fail in discussion and debate. You simply have no basis for it and you cannot address the incontrovertible truths of Eternal Salvation.
I have asked you before-though I am sure you do not know who I am and when I have asked-to explain this single verse:
Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
When you can do so, you will begin to see why you need to leave Catholicism and embrace a proper Christian Faith.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 15:53:02 GMT
The Catholic again:
One doesn't have to have all knowledge to have absolute certainty of Eternal Security. The babe in Christ has this, because the babe has come into obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and come under conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to truth and the response is either acceptance of the truth or rejection.
It is hypothetical, and we know it is because Paul states...
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
That's an easy one...
...the Love of God.
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
I agree, we are blessed to commit to the good works we were created in Christ Jesus unto.
Rather than the doctrine of Catholicism...created in Christ Jesus by good works.
And that is what their doctrine teaches. You cannot deny it as long as you teach men can be disqualified based on their works. If ultimate Eternal Salvation rests on the works of men then Eternal Salvation is accomplished by men, not Christ, and that is contrary to what Scripture teaches:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Abraham received the Promise in the sense the promise was given that God would bless all nations of the earth through him, but we have received the Promise in fulfillment, based on the Sacrifice of Christ...
...not the works we do.
Again...
Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
...go and learn what that meaneth.
I know of no-one that has a sound grasp of Biblical Doctrine that confuses the fact that the spirits of men and angelic spirits (whether Holy or demonic) have an everlasting nature with being equal to Eternal Life.
No, it's just a matter of having an understanding of Scripture that isn't perverted by Catholic indoctrination.
Works cannot save a man. And getting back to topic (sorry), Abraham wasn't saved by his works (and faith)...
...he was justified by his faith and works. That is the point of the OP. You should read it sometime.
The natural man has only selfish priorities. Only the grace of God can lead men to good works.
Shall a man who develops dementia go into eternal separation?
please...read the OP. Get on topic. Your commentary is torturing at least one saint...
...me.
Then his treasure shall be burned up, because it is stubble.
Our treasure lies in our relationship with God which was given us as a gift. We are learning to love God more as we grow in Christ by seeing His faithfulness, not by patting ourselves on the back for our own.
Now, will you please read the OP and find out what this discussion is about?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 16:07:22 GMT
Poster Four:
Would you mind giving an example of "impassioned rhetoric" in either the OP or any of my posts? To show you are not simply being insulting.
It's not a Biblical Fact, it is an erroneous Protestant/Evangelical doctrine that has confused many for centuries.
Faith is the result of Salvation, not the cause. We are saved by Grace Alone. Belief, faith, and works are all results of God's divine intervention in the lives of men.
But you are welcome to show me where we are saved by faith.
This I agree with. This is how we are saved. not because we have faith.
We are justified by faith alone in a temporal context, but salvation in an eternal context is divinely bestowed as a gift. That's the point of the OP, so I would ask you read it and respond on topic. This isn't a discussion about Sola Fide.
God doesn't "gift us with faith," He gifts us with Eternal Salvation.
You are teaching a very Calvinistic and erroneous doctrine that teaches that God gives men faith so they can believe. That is not the case. God provides the truth and men either believe or not, that is their response. The natural man cannot have faith outside of the enlightening ministry of God through revelation of truth. Does a docor gift a patient with faith when he says the cancer has gone into remission? No, it is a response to knowledge given to one.
This is true: there is no faith until God enlightens men to the truth. That doesn't repalce the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through...grace.
No grace...no faith.
Agreed. And our faith did not contribute to the Work of Christ. No man had faith while He was dying on the Cross, not even the disciples. They were scattered and left Him alone, though the Father was with Him.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 16:15:44 GMT
Agreed.
No, James makes the same point Paul makes in Romans 2:13-15, that men are justified by faith and works. We don't have to nullify an inspired statement to counter Catholic error. The problem with both Catholic and Protestant is that both impose an eternal context into passages that are not speaking of salvation...they are speaking about justification, and that...Temporal Justification.
Back up to Romans 3 to find an eternal Context concerning Justification:
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 4 is simply an example given to show that justification by faith alone has precedence in the example of Abraham. Abraham was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would give him a son and bless all families of the earth through him. He was not eternally redeemed because he was willing to offer up Isaac. He was not eternally redeemed because he believed an old woman past bearing would give him a son.
He was eternally redeemed by one thing and one thing only...
...the sacrifice of Christ, Who died to redeem the sins of Abraham:
Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 12, 2019 16:20:58 GMT
Poster 4 again:
Agreed. But the topic isn't faith.
Agreed. But the topic isn't faith.
Agreed. But the topic isn't faith.
No idea what you are trying to say.
Faith arises out of what we hold on to, namely the truths and promises of God. And it only arises when God intervenes in our lives.
As I said, you are teaching a very Calvinistic understanding of faith. There is simply too much emphasis on what men do, and what God has done is being overlooked. We need to return our focus to the magnitude of the Cross and what Christ did for both us as well as Old Testament Saints.
And again...we need to return our focus to the OP. The issue at hand is justification and whether we can impose an eternal context into passages that speak of justification in regards to Old Testament Saints.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 13:26:31 GMT
Poster 4 again:
Correct. We are saved by the grace of God, and faith is the result of His intervention.
Abraham believed God only after God came to him, and revealed His plans and promises. Had it not been for that grace Abraham would have never been saved.
Now, here is the thing: if you say we are saved by faith then, as I said before...you are attributing Eternal Salvation to what man does, rather than what Christ has done.
I don't agree with that entirely, though it is true we respond to God's grace. The reason I don't agree entirely is because the natural man is completely unaware of the spiritual things of God and can therefore have no relevance to those things apart from divine intervention. Consider the man that dies in the Emergency Room: he does not contribute to the efforts made to save him, right? Perhaps a better analogyy might be a man drowning in a lake. A hand is reached out and the response is a desperate grasp of what the drowning man knows to be the only hope of salvation. Now to make it correspond to the natural man receiving the Gospel, we know that the man can decide to shun the offered hand, just as the natural man can shun the truth God enlightens his heart to.
Another analogy would be this: a man is told by his doctor that he has cancer and only has 4 weeks to live. Prior to the doctor telling him he had no knowledge of his plight, therefore had never had the chance to respond. He has two choices, he can accept the doctors diagnosis and take the steps the doctor recommends, or...he can get a second opinion. And that is the only reaction available to the natural man that can be ascribed as an inherent ability...to reject the truth. He cannot accept or reject until he knows it, and accepting it isn't something that is optional, whereby we say he made salvation effective with his response.
Precisely. The Ministry of the Comforter is towards unbelievers every bit as much as it is to believers after they are saved:
John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Until the Spirit ministers to the natural man he is dead, blind, and unaware of his true condition, just as the man with cancer is.
I agree, but answer one question for me:
Romans 10:13-17 King James Version (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Who is the One that sends them? Who is the One that gave them the words to speak?
Okay, that's two questions, lol.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 13:40:24 GMT
Poster 4:
No, the topic of discussion is whether the justification of the Old testament Saint should be viewed as identical to Eternal Redemption. Belief and faith are the reasons given for Abraham's justification in Romans 4, but we are discussing his belief and faith, because we both would likely be in agreement that Abraham believed, then had faith in what he believed.
But that isn't the topic.
I am sure you are familiar with the catch-phrase "The Old Testament Saints were saved by looking forward to the Cross, and we are saved by looking back at the Cross." Most people view Abraham's salvation (and I agree he was, from an eternal -perspective, saved by grace through faith) as identical to our own, those who live in this Age when the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed. However, just as we have not been glorified, which is a part of our ultimate salvation, and that does not change the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, even so Abraham and other Old Testament Saints were saved but they had not received the Promises of God that we have. To name a few, they were not born again, they were not reconciled to God, they were not in Christ, they did not receive the Comforter in His specific ministry that began at Pentecost when He was sent, and they did not receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ in understanding, but only in shadow, figure, type, etc.
The topic of the OP is to examine whether we can restrict the justification of the Old Testament Saint to Temporal Justification and distinguish that from being justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
We see men "declared righteous" in Old Testament Economies, but they all died still in need of Redemption through Christ and His Work.
That is the topic of the OP.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 14:01:41 GMT
Poster 4:
Agreed, but that isn't the topic. We are in agreement on numerous issues, but my goal is to thresh out this issue of the justification of Old Testament Saints.
I do, but that confidence wasn't immediate, it has come through years of study and seeing God's faithfulness in my own life.
Agreed. We can see that throughout Scripture God provided men with revelation and made His will known to them. It is then that we see the response of men, either obedience or disobedience.
But it's more than just a natural man reading or hearing the Word, it's a matter of God making it understandable to them. God only judges based on what men know and how they respond to it, not on issues they don't know. And I am not saying men do not sin if they don't know what they do is sin, because sin is sin and will be judged, but, that isn't the reason people go to Hell. They go to Hell for rejecting the revelation provides. All men receive revelation, whether it is the testimony of Creation, the internal witness of God, or direct revelation. This is why Gentiles who were outside thge sphere of direct revelation could perform the works of the Law, because God had written it on their heart, or in other words revealed His will to them.
And if they were doers of the Law (which can be seen as a reference to God's revealed will even before the Covenant was established)...
...they were justified.
Because the doers of the Law shall be justified.
But that is in a temporal context, we know that Christ had to come and die and rise again to bestow eternal life. One of the most well known passages is also, in my view, one of the least understood:
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
First, v.14 is the Lord's response to Nicodemus' question, "How can these things be?" The "things he wondered about were being born from above and of the Spirit (both references to Regeneration, New Birth).
Secondly, we see the reason given for God sending His Son, that men might have...eternal life. The implication being, and borne out in Scripture itself...is that no man had eternal life until Christ was lifted up.
So while men were declared righteous Eternal salvation is not built upon the righteousness that men do, but the righteousness of Christ only. If men could be righteous enough to gain eternal life then Christ died for nothing:
Galatians 2:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
So again I point to the topic, and point out we are discussing justification, and how that is relevant to the Reformation is this: both Catholics and Protestants view the justification of Romans 4 (Protestants) and James 2 (Catholics) as equal to Eternal Redemption, and the I would suggest that both are temporal.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 13, 2019 14:20:14 GMT
Poster 4:
No, it's genuine. You said...
Calvinism teaches that God regenerates a man that he might have saving faith, based on the basic principle that the natural man cannot perceive or receive the spiritual things of God. Faith is a response to the truth God reveals...He doesn't import it into our beings. Faith follows belief. One cannot have faith in something they don't believe. Now here is the kicker: Belief doesn't demand faith. When the Comforter brings conviction of sin I believe all men have no option but to believe, however, they can reject the truths shown them. That is inherent in their nature, after all, to rebel against God and truth. And we see men who have had the truth delivered to them who have rejected it and their punishment will be worse because of their rejection of the truth:
Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
This makes a correlation between those who rejected God's revelation when He established the (Covenant of) Law, and those who reject the revelation provided in this Age. These are people who have been assembling with the brethren and have forsaken it.
2 Peter 2:12-17 King James Version (KJV)
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Again we see they have known the right way and forsaken it.
2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the isproverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The point being this: God's reveals truth to the natural man, and it is within that ministry that men can respond. We don't necessarily have to exclude believing in those who reject the Gospel, because many of us can testify that we rejected the Gospel for a period of time before finally yielding to the truth and turning to Christ for salvation. You say yourself, "I Resisted it for YEARS."
Continued...
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