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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:54:03 GMT
It matters when you ask me how Adam might have died before the Fall. And the simple fact is that he could have died in an accident. This is speculation, of course, but...you are the one asking the question.
Then you turn it to a general sense and act as though you have accomplished something.
I ask you again...what sin does the unborn child in the womb commit?
And I ask you again to give a Scriptural reason why men had eternal life, not simply a reiteration of your opinion.
Why would that be relevant? The focus is whether or not men received eternal life from the Tree of Life in the Garden.
If you would actually post what I say you might not waste so much time with nonsense like this.
It's a question. Where did men receive eternal life?
As to who brought up the Tree of Life...
That is the only source of "life" found in the account outside of the life given to Adam and Eve by God.
Sin...which was not present in the world. So again...what are they saved from?
According to your opinion that has no Scriptural basis.
As opposed to the numerous Scriptural passages given that show that Christ came...that men might have eternal life.
So again, if they had eternal life what was the source? Scripture, please.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 19:00:04 GMT
Now this one might seem offensive, but it was not given for that purpose, lol. It was simply stated as a matter of fact:
I agree, but that wasn't the focus, the focus was your confusion as to why the Lord had to be resurrected.
God bless.This comes in response to this...
Anyone want to venture a guess as to why he hasn't found an answer that satisfies him?
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 19:23:55 GMT
Not sure if I have already addressed this or not, my outing yesterday and the intervening posts on a tablet (I should know better) leave me reviewing the thread and perhaps going over a few of them again (because some of them did receive responses from the tablet which were limited).
Again, Eternal Life is the result of men being immersed into God in Eternal Union. This is accomplished when Christ baptizes men into Himself. This is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is thought and taught my most as a "subsequent empowerment of the believer," as opposed to the Biblical Definition given in Acts 11:13-18 (not to mention Christ and the Apostles' teachings), which is that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment of salvation itself.
Note the two Baptisms of Christ:
Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The gathering of the wheat is a reference to Eternal Salvation. The burning up of the chaff (unbelievers) with unquenchable fire is a reference to Eternal Damnation. The primary issue I would point out is...
...it isn't happening yet.
The Lord's death wasn't all that was required for Eternal Life with God, though I would ask at this point that if you feel that it is...why would you ascribe Eternal Life to men prior to this taking place? We can see in the Gospel of John that it will not be until Christ returns to Heaven (John 14:1-3) that He will send the Promised Spirit, and it is when men receive Him (at which time they are indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, John 14:15-23) that they receive Eternal Life:
John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
Romans 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Those that believe on Christ will have, internally, rivers of living waters flowing out of them. This is, in my own view, a reference not just to the eternal life we have, but also refers to the Word of God (which flows out of us) which is twice credited as relevant to Regeneration:
1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Both of which are references to the Gospel, which I will again mention was a Mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages or generations, but is now revealed to men by the Holy Ghost...sent down from Heaven:
1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 19:45:31 GMT
The Resurrection is one part of elements that cannot be divorced from each other. Regeneration is stated by Scripture to be the result of Christ's death, Resurrection, the Gospel (which is the Death, Burial and Resurrection), and the Indwelling of God.
Now the one thing that I would like to know is how exactly can one have Eternal Life yet not be eternally indwelt by God (which did not begin until Pentecost), not be redeemed from the Law, and not be born again?
Being "born from above" is a euphemism for being born of God. As is being "born again, and "born of the Spirit." Being born of water is a reference to the washing of water by the Word of God, which is itself another element of Regeneration, being born again by the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23). There are not "two different things" found in John 3, the Lord is teaching that men must be born of God, and how that will be accomplished, starting with the fact that the Lord must die:
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Regeneration correlates to men receiving Eternal Life through Christ.
Election is an irrelevant issue to when men began to be baptized into Christ through the adoption of sons. While God knew the role of the registry of the Eternal State, that doesn't mean men were saved prior to their actual salvation. The Elect must still be born and then reconciled to God through the Atonement. All men are born separated from God. That is Man's problem. He sins because of his separation from God, rather than he is separated because he sins. Separated because of Adam's sin, yes, but not because of personal sin. I would suggest that the babe in the womb that is murdered is not held accountable for the sins of others.
I agree, unless one is born again they do not have eternal life. And that because they are not in Christ:
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 20:02:54 GMT
A new voice to the thread:
Sorry, but I see the same error many make in regards to how we are saved, and as to how the Old Testament Saints were saved, which is that they were saved by faith. The fact is that they all died in faith...not receiving the promises (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). And you mention one of those promises:
You are correct that the Gospel is not exclusive to the New Testament, but you err in ascribing it as revealed (or at least implying that it was). The Gospel was a Mystery in those Ages (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). We see that what was told to Abraham was that all nations of the earth would be blessed, however...that doesn't equate to a knowledge that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh for the express purpose of dying in the stead of the sinner and taking upon Himself their penalty for sin that they might have eternal life.
The means of salvation for the Old Testament Saint was exactly the same means for salvation in this Age: the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). Why that distinction is important is that if we teach men are saved by faith and forget that there is no faith apart from God's intervention in the lives of men we risk turning salvation into a works-based effort.
No man is saved by any effort he puts forth. Paul makes it clear that not even the faith is of the believer:
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is a gift, and if someone has to do something for something it cannot be said to be given:
Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Now, here is what I would suggest for consideration: the Old Testament Saint was saved by grace through faith like as we, but had not received the promises God made. It is no different than the fact that we have not yet received the promise of the redemption of our bodies (glorification), but it makes us no less saved than it made the Old Testament Saint saved because they had not yet been Regenerated. Their eternal destinies were secured during their lifetimes because they responded to God's grace with belief, faith, and...works. But before they could do that they did not seek after God, they had no inherent ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and they were in desperate need of the same thing we all need from birth...to be reconciled to God (and I just posted several verses that show no man was reconciled before the Work of Christ was accomplished if you are interested).
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 20:11:31 GMT
Once again we hear from Moderation:
Still haven't heard back from the moderator I reported. This Moderator is right, we should be able to have discussions without all the nonsense some wish to interject into it, but hey...there's at least one of those on every forum. Some forums...that's all they have. And sometimes...it's the Moderators too! lol
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 20:14:11 GMT
Okay, if you miss the humor in this one there is simply no hope for you, lol, you have been born without a funny bone:
Here is my response:
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 20:21:56 GMT
And in case anyone hasn't realized it "S.T. Ranger" is a pseudonym I use on numerous forums. It is based on the fact that we are "strangers" and pilgrims. I also use "Pilgrim" in various spellings (i.e., P1LGR1M, etc.). I was contacted by one of the ladies on this forum in a PM with some seriously complimentary words (stemming from a Rapture thread (also posted on this forum)). But after I told her I do not, out of love and respect for my wife, PM with women but was happy to have conversations publicly in the threads, her attitude seemed to change a little. I can actually understand that because there is for some a tendency to take things personally. I did not cast aspersion on her own character or intentions but simply pointed out my own policy concerning private messaging. I think for all of us truth can cause a reaction that is emotional because we all feel the pain when our consciences are pricked, particularly when it is a goad from the Word of God (referring to Doctrinal Debate).
I think for now I am going to let this thread go because I cannot get anyone to actually address the points being raised. I think that the issue of eternal life in regards to Regeneration is a vital element, and am sorry that the one poster refused to discuss it with civility. But there are other forums. Interestingly enough I joined this forum back in 2015, but never did any posting that the record reveals. I did receive another PM from another member welcoming me back, though, so despite the record I must have done some posting.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 20:25:03 GMT
Okay, I officially left the thread until someone starts getting on topic, lol:
Okay, I am going to let this thread go until I can get some direct responses to the points that have been raised. My apologies to those who took offense at the doctrine, that is never the intent, but I would suggest giving at least a little consideration to the points raised, particularly in regards to the correlation of Eternal Life, REgeneration, and the coming of the Promised Spirit.
God bless.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 4, 2019 16:38:39 GMT
The following is one of the two responses I received via email notification from the Forum this and "Temporal Justification" are taken from. Apparently, I was banned for my ill manners, or, perhaps it was because I called a Moderator on his unjust moderation and respect of persons and actually reported him, lol.
The first quote is the statements I made which can be viewed in an earlier post. Those that follow are the responses of my antagonist:
First, death came upon all men:
Romans 5:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
First, while it is very likely that there was no death at all, and I lean heavily to that, I would also say it is reasonable to see a specific focus on man here, and that death in the animal/plant/bird/bug kingdoms may have been possible, particularly if things had gone on for some time. If there was no death at all then based on your view we would have to say that everything had "eternal life" in the Garden. But that is not the point. The idea that just because man did not die he had eternal life is absurd. All created spirits have an everlasting existence, however...that doesn't mean we ascribe eternal life to them.
Secondly, my response is, again, directed to the physical aspect of Adam's existence. He is thrust out of the Garden for the express purpose that he not live forever, and the reasonable conclusion is that the Tree of Life is the source of his "living forever," which is the only "everlasting life" he had:
Genesis 3:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
It's a simple point: Adam would have lived forever if he maintained access to the tree. There is his "everlasting life."
Third, we see that Adam's sin was covered by the deaths of animals. The point being that this identifies the death Adam was told he would receive as...physical.
And I will continue this to keep this from getting too long per post.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 4, 2019 17:00:14 GMT
Right. Scripture?
The unborn child has the same problem all men are conceived in...separation from God.
And I will point out the relevance of this point to those who haven't grasped it: it is held by many that Adam had eternal life (as this poster tries to say), lost it in the Fall, and now we are trying to get it back. The problem with that is this: God holds men accountable for sin according to the revelation provided to men. The revelation to Adam was "...do not eat of the Tree of Life," and he was held accountable for that violation. As we progress through the Ages, so too revelation progresses, and we see the basic principle of responsibility according to knowledge. A few passages that show this are...
Matthew 11:23-24 King James Version (KJV)
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The basic principle is this: there will be varying degrees of judgment and it is determined by the response to the revelation the person received.
The babe in the womb has no ability to commit sin, and the reason why the babe needs salvation is because the babe is separated from God...
...not because the babe sins. That is just absurd.
The "sin nature" many think is passed down from father to son is a doctrine of men. Men sin because they are separated, not because they inherited a disease called sin. It is death that is passed down, not sin:
Romans 5:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
David understood this and knew that he would see his child again. How would he see that child? In direct relationship. He would not be viewing the child in torment because the child died before getting the chance to repent, nor did David think he himself would be in torment so that he could go to the child, because David was a man of faith that firmly held to his hope of salvation by Savior God.
So how is the babe in the womb that is murdered in abortion saved? Glad you asked: by grace.
It's that simple, folks, salvation is always and will always be by the grace of God. Does the child have to express faith? How can they? Do we speculate that the child, in their spirit form after death...is given the option? You're right...that is ridiculous.
Those who go around condemning the those who won't be saved with the belief that only those who hear the Gospel can be saved, let me remind you of the fact that not a single Old Testament Saint was expressly placing faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ for one simple reason: the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, truth not yet revealed to men in those Ages, hidden since the world began. There are numerous threads on this forum that discuss that. There are other reasons, such as the fact that faith in Christ wasn't available to men in the Age of Law according to Paul in Galatians 3:20-28. While the Gospel is found in the Old Testament, understanding of it by the Old Testament Saints is not. We can't even find a single disciple of Christ trusting in the Resurrection until Pentecost.
So here is the conclusion: if God can show grace to men who committed murder and adultery (Moses and David come to mind), then I don't think it outside of the realm of possibility that God can show grace to an unborn child that never made it out of the womb to receive revelation to either embrace or reject.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 4, 2019 17:16:11 GMT
Well, that seems to be the theory of many, but we don't see anything in Scripture to suggest this is the case.
Adam was thrust out of the Garden so he could not live forever, and the means of that life was the Tree.
If he had eternal life then he didn't lose that leaving the Garden...unless the Tree was the source.
Likely true, however, I am not sure I want to embrace a view that suggests eternal life for everything that lives.
Eternal Life is a result of being in God and He in us, that isn't open for debate. Can we say this is true of the other lifeforms on earth? If we do then we are subscribing to Eastern Mystical religions, aren't we? Giving support for "the Force," lol. "All is one."
Again, absurd. Adam's life is the life in view, and it is Adam's death that is in view. And the simple conclusion from Scripture is that Adam died physically because he no longer had access to the Tree of Life.
And I would have loved to have asked this fellow if he is not ascribing eternal life to the Tree. I don't need to, though, because he knows in his heart this is absurd, or at least I hope he does. His waffling seems to indicate that, seeing he is trying to play both sides of the street.
Nevertheless let's look at what those trees (plural, as opposed to singular in the Garden) provide:
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Will our Eternal Salvation, our Eternal Life...need healing?
Not sure how healing can be viewed as the source of eternal life.
Is it just me or does this person imply that men will live forever because they have access to these trees?
Well I know that, and most serious Bible Students know that, but it can't be viewed as confessing CHrist as the Source of Eternal Life when one implies eternal life has as a source the "trees" of life.
And there it is: eternal life was in the Garden, Adam lost it for us, and now we need to get it back.
This is a contradictory confession on this fellow's part because either Jesus Christ came to bestow eternal life or He didn't. Nowhere are we told that He came to restore eternal life to men, but that He came to die that men might have eternal life. Now here is something to consider: if eternal life is a result of His death, burial, and Resurrection...
...what was the source of eternal life in the Garden?
You have jsut seen this man's belief...the Tree of Life.
The tree of life in either the Garden or the Eternal State is not the source of Eternal Life...Jesus Christ is. And this by our baptism into Him. This is just basic to Christian Doctrine folks.
Great, so every Muslim, has eternal life?
Here...
Hebrews 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
...we see that general faith in God is no longer acceptable. In this Age it is specific faith in JEsus Christ. Not towards Him, as many Jews who are still awaiting the First Coming of the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Apr 4, 2019 17:28:35 GMT
It does:
Galatians 3:21-27 King James Version (KJV)
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
I have simply worn out certain letters on my keyboard: A-B-S-U-R and D keys.
Finally, something I can agree with.
So why imply the Tree of Life was Adam's?
No, actually it is not. Abraham had faith in things we see as accomplished, such as God granting him a son of his own flesh through Sarai's barren womb, and that he would bless all nations of the earth through him. We have faith that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh Who died in our stead that, as Christ stated here...
John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
...we might have eternal life.
Now, if there could only be a Scripture to support that, and an adequate response to the points and Scripture that show this isn't the case...he might have something. Until then it's nothing but opinion without Scriptural support.
God bless.
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