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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2019 14:10:27 GMT
This is a thread started on a Christian Doctrinal Debate and Discussion Forum. It includes a poll so I will have to mention the results as they come in. There have been in the first day three responses yet no-one has posted their view in this:
Seeing that the Lord made Regeneration (the New Birth) mandatory for entrance to the Kingdom of God, it is something that all Christians should understand thoroughly. One of the best ways, in my view, to teach on this matter is to ask this question, "Were men born again before Pentecost?" In the years I have been debating this I would put the responses at 95% say yes, the rest say no. So before you answer this question give it a little thought, because if you have not given it thought before (and many haven't) it might be you are in for a surprise. And if you don't mind please mention whether this is a question you have given thought to before.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2019 14:57:02 GMT
I would be in agreement with that, and I hope that as we discuss this we can see why Regeneration isn't seen in Old Testament Economies. Something to consider is that a basic teaching of Christ is that He came to give eternal life, and to make what was dead...alive:
John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Note that the "passing from death to life" is accomplished in physically living people, the implication being that men are "dead" until they turn to Christ. The Lord also makes this point here:
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
One of the fathers I would mention that is included among the dead is...Moses. The Lord isn't telling them Moses was physically dead, they were well aware of that. What He is saying is that Moses had not received the Living Bread which came down from Heaven (The Son of God) that men might live...forever. Or in other words, have eternal life.
And we will see Him mention how men receive that Bread, which He calls His "flesh," which is a reference to His death. Having eternal life and Regeneration have the same source and the same beginning in time. But first, let's see Him nail this point (that men do not have life unless they believe on Him and His Sacrifice) down:
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
We know how He gave His flesh "to eat," they did not (because the Mystery of the Gospel was not yet revealed to men). Those who do not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood...have no life in them. That is...everlasting/eternal life. In view is our partaking in His death which is accomplished by our believing in HIm and His Work.
Most of us are familiar with John 3, one of the most highly debated passages in Scripture. We are told that Regeneration is mandatory to enter the Kingdom of God:
John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The Lord's response to Nicodemus' statement seems random, but nothing the Lord did was random. Nicodemus responds with a physical and temporal context applied to "Ye must be born from above (which I view as the better rendering)." The Lord points out His error and will ask why a Teacher of Israel misses the mark. Something to consider here is that the word translated into English as "again," anothen, is like many English words which have differing meanings. It can mean "from above," as well as "again." So we might excuse Nicodemus on that basis, but the Lord does not, but calls him on his error, and this based on the premise that he should have understood a spiritual/eternal context. Think of it like this: two biblically sound are standing together and there is a man twenty feet away from them preaching that men will become gods, and one of the men turns to the other and exclaims "That man is lying!" The other man responds with, "No he isn't, he is standing up!" The second man, being sound in his Doctrine and knowing full well men do not become gods has erred and he misunderstood the context of the first man's statement. This is what happens in Nicodemus' case. He should have, because of his familiarity with the Hebrew Scriptures, immediately thought of Ezekiel 36:24-27 or Ezekiel 37 in which we see God restoring Israel...to life.
The Lord's statement above states the same thing in vv.3 and 5, both being references to being "born of God," something that is immediately taught about by John in the very first Chapter of this Gospel (John 1:11-13). BEing born from above is to be born of God, and being born of water (the washing of the water of the Word) and Spirit is also a reference to being born of God. And if you consult John 1:11-13 you will see that it is when Christ came that men began to believe on Him (see also Galatians 3:21-27) and it is by this belief that men began to become the sons of God.
We will jump through part of the Lord's response to Nicodemus and return to the issue being discussed, which is seeing the correlation between having eternal life, being born again (Regenerated), and why this came about when Christ came and not before:
John 3:9-16 King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
First, we note one of the most important questions in all of Scripture: Nicodemus asks "How can a man be born from above and born of water and of the Spirit?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The Lord is right to question Nicodemus' confusion and ignorance. The Old Testament taught that God would restore Israel and the concept of resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and being born again (Ezekiel 36:24-27) should have been familiar to him. But the Lord also implies that Nicodemus is among those who have rejected the Lord's teachings which were relevant to Israel as a Nation in a temporal context. His question is basically, "Why ask me about the difficult doctrine that is spiritual when you refuse to hear basic teachings that relate to your relationship to God in the temporal? If that is too much for you to embrace will the realities of Who I am going to be of any use to you?"
And next we see the answer to the question:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
In other words, the answer to the question, "How can a man be born again," is that Christ must die on the Cross. We can understand that because we stand on this side of the Cross and have had the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to us, whereas Nicodemus could not properly place this in that context. Now we see the result of the Lord being lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again, this is one of the most known statements in Scripture yet I think that the significance is passed over. God gave His Son that men might have...everlasting life. Moses was designated as dead. He did not have that life that Christ came to bestow. And lest someone think I do not view Moses as having been "saved" by grace through faith, let me say clearly...he was. But, Moses did not receive that life until Christ died. It is popular to believe that that Atonement and Reconciliation and Justification in an eternal sense were applied to Moses prior to His death...they weren't (see Hebrews 9:12-15). He died offering up sacrifice for the remission of sins and atonement that was temporal and had to be continually offered. He died not receiving the promises GoOd began making in Genesis 3:15 (see also Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). He was "saved" in the sense that his eternal destiny was secured by the grace of God through faith. But just as we are saved and have not received our glorified bodies, and are no less saved than w will be then, even so, Abraham was saved but had not yet received eternal life, Atonement, nor the Reconciliation that was accomplished when God took up residence in human flesh and died in the stead of the sinner (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).
Regeneration occurs when men are baptized into Christ, and another very basic truth oft overlooked is that Jew and Gentile are both made one in Christ (Galatians 3:27-29), and I will close this with that thought in mind:
Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2019 15:22:21 GMT
This is a great and important point: men did not go to be with God in Heaven but had only a temporal entrance to His presence in parable:
Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
The Writer goes on to say...
Hebrews 9:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
In v.9 we have parabolē (translated was a figure) which is the same word translated "parable," and in v.24 we have antitypos , which speaks of a "pre-figuring" of something, almost in the concept of a model of a building created before the building is actually built. Both indicate that what was available to men in regards to entrance into His presence was not the reality, but a picture of the reality. The "way into the holiest of all" was not yet made manifest. In v.24 we see the reality, the Holy Place where God's true presence resides. That is where our Great High Priest has gone. The Levitical High Priest entered into the "holiest of all" for Israel, and Christ has entered into the true Holiest of All for us, Jew and Gentile who are in Christ. One more statement I view as relevant to true entrance to God's presence (which is accomplished by Christ):
Hebrews 10:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
This is one of my favorite passages because it is what I view to be the most inarguable statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. God promised that He would forgive sins on an eternal basis, and in Chapter Ten we see numerous statements that this has been accomplished forever for those who have been sanctified by the blood (death) of Jesus Christ. Moreover, we see that He has created entrance to God's true presence (as opposed to the figure/parable found in the Law) through the "flesh" which was pre-figured in the veil that separated man from God in the Tabernacle (as well as the Temple, though the Writer does not mention the Temple (and this because of the distinct audience being Israel as a people)). Think about that, God took upon flesh to bring men into His presence and this was pictured in the earthly Tabernacle which was just a...parable. It was not the reality.
This would make a great topic for a separate thread. I don't think I have ever actually seen one on this specific topic. Thank you for your reply.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2019 15:26:15 GMT
This poster answers...with Scripture!
Awesome response, awesome!
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 1, 2019 15:55:31 GMT
In the other thread, hopefully, we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament as we look at those issues surrounding New Birth. I hold to the view that eternal life began with Christ primarily because that is what Christ states He came to bestow, and as we look at the New Testament we begin to see this made clear. For example:
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
The "life" He speaks of is associated with the True/Living Bread (Himself) coming down from HEaven. We wouldn't impose this into the timeframe of the Wilderness and would have to exclude men receiving this bread because manna was the provision given. Manna sustained physical life whereas the True/Living Bread sustains Eternal Life, hence the many statements about men not dying. And this contrasted with the fathers being dead, or in other words...they did not receive this life at that time.
We see it in numerous familiar texts:
John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Now two things we have to clarify in our hearts in order to understand this is 1) no man was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior (which is how men are saved in this Age and become sons of God) and 2) no man had received the PRomised Spirit. And it is through believing the Gospel of Christ (which was a mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages (Ephesians 3:2-5; Colossians 1:25-27; Romans 16:26-27) that men receive the Promised Spirit:
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
So having eternal life is a result of being placed in Christ. John 14:15-23 teaches that the indwelling of the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17) is a future event, meaning the disciples were not in Him and He was not in them until Pentecost. That is the moment of salvation according to Peter and the Jews He recounts the conversion of Cornelius to:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
So there are numerous issues we have to discuss in order to bring the conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament.
As to what would have killed Adam, remember that not all death is the result of sin. We can't make the fact that death is the wage of sin into a concept that only sin can kill. Adam could have died in an accident, for example. But that doesn't change the fact that his provision for not dying-which equates to everlasting life in the physical sense-was the Tree of Life. That is why God thrust him out, that he would no longer have access and thus "live forever:"
Genesis 3:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 17:31:17 GMT
I wanted to get this one in before I am banned, lol. It seems that I am being unkind again:
First, understand what I am about to say is said with respect given for leadership among Christians and that I too believe that unless there is someone to moderate things can get out of hand. Having said that I am amazed that you accuse me of being "highminded" and worse...flinging unhelpful remarks. Everything I have said is true and meant to help other believers to better understand hard to understand issues.
Secondly, while I have not fully reviewed the thread, if you are going to accuse me of being highminded and "flinging remarks" I would appreciate it if you would point these out. If I have said something out of the way I will immediately apologize.
Third...have you read the thread? Is it okay for someone to derail a thread and disrupt it with comments such as...
I haven't seen anything said about these insults and a very clear threat. I would say that my responses to this member have been very reserved.
I agree, so why is it that you have singled me out as the aggressor? REad my posts and if you can tell me they are not an attempt at a serious conversation then I will acknowledge it.
I have undone nothing. I have presented a Biblically based presentation of my views and counters to other views. I would suggest to you, sir, that it is you and this member that are detracting from the potential of the thread.
You can.
I am one of them. Why is it that this same courtesy seems to be denied me?
I'm not here to molly coddle people and give an appearance of friendship that I know will be rejected the minute I disagree with anything someone holds to, lol, I am simply looking for serious students of the Bible I can have an intelligent conversation with and hopefully test my own views. which is the primary focus of my own postings. I test my own views before I test others'.
Well, I have reported your post, BR. Bear, because I see it as unjust and overlooking the cause of disruption to this thread. I cannot abide on a forum when certain members are allowed to get away with murder (literally, because this fellow seems to hate me without cause) and other members are called out for trying to maintain the conversation.
I would ask you to review the thread and honestly say that you haven't overlooked Quantrill's transgression of Forum Etiquette. But don't think I am going to cater to leadership that isn't being Just.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:08:54 GMT
"Experiencing" the Holy Ghost isn't quite the same as receiving the Promised Spirit:
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit and the Spirit being with men and being eternally indwelt by the Spirit and being baptized into Christ. We can see in these passages that what we receive today in salvation was not received by the Old Testament Saints. Christ had to come, and then return to Heaven in order for the Comforter-Who is the Promised Spirit-to come. And when He came, He was in us forever as opposed to His being with men and even leaving men in the Old Testament.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:18:52 GMT
Sorry, Dave, I missed this.
Yes, David has eternal life now, because he has been redeemed by Christ. However, by equating Eternal Life with the fact that all spirits will exist eternally is a grave error. Demons will also exist forever in Hell but we do not view them as having eternal life. Eternal Life isn't a matter of an unending existence, it is a matter of being in Christ and partaking of His life, which is eternal. Only those who are in Christ have eternal life. THose who are in hades that died outside of God's will do not have life, they are dead. And I would repeat what I said earlier in regards to all men being dead prior to Christ coming and making eternal life possible:
If you see error in the above, or think it is weak in some way in supporting the view that Christ taught no man can have Eternal Life apart from believing in HIm, please quote what that is and explain why.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:21:28 GMT
I just want to point out this is one of the posts that preceded the Moderators comments to me:
In the other thread, hopefully, we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament as we look at those issues surrounding New Birth. I hold to the view that eternal life began with Christ primarily because that is what Christ states He came to bestow, and as we look at the New Testament we begin to see this made clear. For example:
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
The "life" He speaks of is associated with the True/Living Bread (Himself) coming down from HEaven. We wouldn't impose this into the timeframe of the Wilderness and would have to exclude men receiving this bread because manna was the provision given. Manna sustained physical life whereas the True/Living Bread sustains Eternal Life, hence the many statements about men not dying. And this contrasted with the fathers being dead, or in other words...they did not receive this life at that time.
We see it in numerous familiar texts:
John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Now two things we have to clarify in our hearts in order to understand this is 1) no man was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior (which is how men are saved in this Age and become sons of God) and 2) no man had received the Promised Spirit. And it is through believing the Gospel of Christ (which was a mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages (Ephesians 3:2-5; Colossians 1:25-27; Romans 16:26-27) that men receive the Promised Spirit:
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
So having eternal life is a result of being placed in Christ. John 14:15-23 teaches that the indwelling of the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17) is a future event, meaning the disciples were not in Him and He was not in them until Pentecost. That is the moment of salvation according to Peter and the Jews He recounts the conversion of Cornelius to:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
So there are numerous issues we have to discuss in order to bring the conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament.
As to what would have killed Adam, remember that not all death is the result of sin. We can't make the fact that death is the wage of sin into a concept that only sin can kill. Adam could have died in an accident, for example. But that doesn't change the fact that his provision for not dying-which equates to everlasting life in the physical sense-was the Tree of Life. That is why God thrust him out, that he would no longer have access and thus "live forever:"
Genesis 3:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:23:27 GMT
What now? I'd probably say that now it's time to address all that smoke. You've ignored everything stated. While death in a general context is the result of sin we don't ascribe sin to everyone who dies from a personal basis of responsibility. Do you think babies murdered in the womb sin? We don't have to wonder about the Tree of Life in Revelation, we are told why it's the and it is not for eternal life. And if you think the Tree of Life in the Garden have Eternal Life then you have just created two sources for eternal life. Do you want to stick with that? And if you propose everyone was saved could you explain exactly what it is...they were saved from?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:27:12 GMT
This one was directed to the Moderator but I addressed it, seeing that it is an important issue (emphasis mine):
Christ died to stone for sin and arose to...bestow eternal life. This why we are born again:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
God bless.
I find it very interesting that this person doesn't understand why the Resurrection is necessary. Yet we will see in just a few posts that suddenly he seems to have full understanding.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:29:29 GMT
Yes, being born again is when we receive eternal life. I'm on a tablet right now so will have to expand on this later but would point out that Christ came that men might have...life. What kind of Life are we told He came to give men?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:31:17 GMT
Here is the response from mine antagonist, lol, to the statement of the Moderator (above):
[/quote]
I will acknowledge that the Moderator does make a plea that we "consider Him in all our writing in and on this forum and do all we can to exalt His name," but I see nothing addressing the behavior of this poster.
And here is my response to his statement concerning the OP:
Temporal Justification is the other thread. This thread is about Regeneration. That is why eternal life has come up. As to your disagreement concerning eternal life being obtained in the Old Testament I would suggest you find Scripture to support that view. I would also ask you address the points made. If you aren't going to be serious about the discussion why are you interacting in it?
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:40:50 GMT
This one goes a little off topic but the disposition of men then and now is relevant to the discussion:
I don't view anyone going to Heaven prior to the Cross. In regards to Enoch we only know he was translated that he should not see death, but I take that as meaning he did not experience death as men do but was translated directly to sheol. The way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest. In regards to Elijah there are several reasons why we wouldn't view his being caught up to the heavens as being caught up to Heaven. First, no man can enter Heaven when their sins have not been redeemed. And no man's sin was redeemed until Christ died. That is why everyone went to sheol/Hades. Secondly, we see a letter from Elijah after his departure:
2 Chronicles 21:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a *******, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
Another reason is that we see Elijah with Moses on the mount, and I don't see any reason to suppose that God gave Elijah something He didn't give Moses
Another reason might be seen in this statement:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
While it's true God can make exceptions to general rules it remains that men did not receive eternal life until Christ died, arose, returned to Heaven, and then sent the Promised Spirit all Old Testament Saints died not receiving. We receive life when we receive Christ and become one with Him. This is seen throughout the New Testament. One account makes this clear as it deals with the conversion of an Old Testament Saint:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2019 18:49:36 GMT
Here is one that has insult and threat:
This was pointed out to the Moderator.
Here is my response:
Again, the topic of discussion in this thread is Regeneration.
And your insults are not necessary. If you cannot contribute to the topic and must resort to tantrums, please find another thread to disrupt.
Voicing an opinion is not "addressing eternal life in the Old Testament."
You can start by addressing the posts that show my own reasoning behind men not having eternal life.
And this is stated in Scripture...where?
And it denies that Christ came that men might have eternal life through His death and Resurrection...how?
lol. no, please do. Unless that means you are going to be more insulting than you have already been. THen in that case, no, I wouldn't care for it...
...because this is a serious topic and there is a chance for profitable discussion.
God bless.
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