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Post by Admin on Mar 29, 2019 15:32:49 GMT
The following discussion is taken from a Christian Doctrinal Debate and Discussion Forum:
We can see God is pouring out His wrath on the earth:
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
It's not really possible to "fill up the wrath of God" if there is not wrath.
However, I have to acknowledge that I do not see...
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
....as a strong argument for the Body not going through the Rapture. A primary reason, we do not receive "salvation" when Christ raptures the Church (which will be everyone, both alive and dead), we receive salvation when we are reconciled to God through Christ and regenerated by being placed in Him. So this would be a general reference, first, to our being appointed to salvation (which has a view of our ultimate salvation in the Eternal State) rather than Eternal Wrath that the Lost will suffer. Secondly, we do see that at least some of those who are born again during the Tribulation will suffer the wrath that is poured out on unbelievers. Apart from those preserved in the wilderness (in the second half of the Tribulation, which coincides with the 3 1/2 years Antichrist receives power (which follows the 3 1/2 years the Two Witnesses have power)), we still see believers dying from the wrath of the Antichrist because they refuse to worship him (Revelation 20:4).
But we do see that the Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on the earth.
A better argument would be that we can expect the Rapture to take place prior to the Tribulation because Paul was yearning to be raptured and he makes no mention of believers going through the Tribulation prior to that:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
The point is that he desired to receive that body made in the heavens, the glorified body, but he makes it clear he doesn't mean he wants to die in order for that to happen. If the Tribulation preceded the Rapture then he could not make that point. He would essentially be saying, if that were the case, that He didn't want God's will to be accomplished and would be in conflict with God's will...because believers are in fact going to die in the Tribulation.
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Mar 29, 2019 15:49:16 GMT
At the Rapture. We return with Him in the Second Coming. It's simply not possible to have the Body raptured when Christ returns because there would be no-one left to populate the Kingdom. All believers are destroyed and only born again believers enter the Kingdom (John 3:3-5). Note the destruction of the unbelievers physically in the following passage:
Luke 17:26-37 King James Version (KJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Clearly, physical judgment is in view and the Lord uses the Flood, Sodom, and Lot's wife as examples, saying "...as it was (then), thus shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed."
The disciples ask where "they will be taken," and the imagery given is that of physical death resulting in carcasses being devoured by birds. This is familiar imagery in the Old Testament when God's judgment is described:
Ezekiel 39 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
This also correlates to the description of the Second Coming in Revelation:
Revelation 19:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
The fact that their bodies are devoured demands a period of time after the destruction, as well as demands a physical destruction. This cannot be said of the destruction that falls on men in Revelation 20...
Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
...because when this takes place the heavens and Earth pass away, final judgment takes place (the Great White Throne), and the lost (described as "dead" becaue they did not receive the Life Christ came to give) are cast into Eternal Torment::
Revelation 20:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Thus we come back to a point made earlier that it is not possible that the Body of Christ is raptured at the end of the Tribulation because those devoured by flame in 20:9 are the offspring of those who are born again in the Tribulation, who are not taken...but left (to enter into the Kingdom).
Continued...
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2019 16:31:14 GMT
Simple is good. Detailed is better:
The reason errors like this are going to happen is that your doctrine departs from Scripture, thus it cannot be supported on all points.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only viewpoint that doesn't have to nullify, redefine, or exaggerate the rest of Scripture.
They take place prior to the Lord's Return. If you would simply read Revelation like you do Old Testament Prophecy you wouldn't have the problem balancing the Word of God as you now are. It is a chronological description of the events of the Seven Year Tribulation, which is the Seventieth Week of Daniel. It maintains the PRophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning the Kingdom God promised Israel. Know this, God does not renege on a single promise. Everything will be fulfilled just as Prophecy has always been fulfillled...to the jot and tittle. That means, that just as Isaiah foretold, enmity between man and animals, and animals and animals will come to an end in that Kingdom, Men will live longer, those dying at a hundred years of age being viewed as "babes (very young)."
Do you feel they take place after? That sounds like an interesting discussion.
That's the problem, you are equating His teaching concerning His Return with the Rapture. There is no Resurrection of the dead in the Return of Christ except for Tribulation Martyrs (Revelation 20:4). That is just one of the reasons why the Rapture cannot take place at His Return, as explained to you earlier. Yet instead of addressing the points raised you have ignored them.
So let me make another point often provided by those who reject the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I don't know if you are Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, Preterist, or Amillennial (all erroneous positions), but let me just address the Resurrection that does take place at the Lord's Return so you can better understand the point I am making now:
Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
One argument presented by Post-Trib believers is that here we see the "first" resurrection, so the Rapture, which itself is a resurrection (of both alive and dead born again believers), cannot possibly have happened yet. The problem with that is that those who make this claim ignore the Greek and rely solely on a limited use of the English word "first." That word in the Greek is...
prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.
Note that it bears the meaning of "foremost" in time, place, and importance. Now let's take a look at where we find this word used to show that imposing a meaning of sequence into Revelation 20:4 is a big mistake:
Mat 20:27
And whosoever will be chief G4413 among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 22:38
This is the first G4413 and great commandment.
Mar 6:21
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief G4413 estates of Galilee;
Mar 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first G4413 commandment.
Luk 15:22
But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best G4413 robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Now, in the above verses we see that a meaning of sequence isn't in view, but rather importance. In regards to the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs we have a combined meaning of importance and sequence in this sense: there are only two resurrections available to men:
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is the "first" because it is the primary resurrection, not because it is the resurrection that takes place first. The "first resurrection" in regards to a meaning of sequence is of course the Lord's Own Resurrection:
Acts 26:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Same word, protos, yet a different context which denies that the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs in Revelation 20:4 is the first as it is here. The tribulation Martyrs are most likely glorified based on the duration of their reign with Christ, one thousand years (the entire period of the Millennial Kingdom), so we keep in mind that this resurrection, as well as the Lord's...deals with being raised from the dead according to the Resurrection of Life. So clearly the resurrection of Revelation is not "first." in a context of sequence.
We also see another Resurrection unto Life here...
Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
...which is actually an account of the Two Witnesses being...raptured. Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven, yet they are caught up to Heaven just as the Lord was.
This brings consistency to Scripture not found in the other views. Those who make the Two Witnesses something other than two men deny the very context of Revelation 11. But that is the kind of nullifying and redefining and loop jumping we see in other views. They must canel out quite a bit of Prophecy in order to make their system work, and the bottom line is...it just doesn't work. Why would we interpret Revelation any other way than we do all Prophecy of Scripture?
And I hope, from here on out, you will not say you have never received an answer to your question. This is just one point, not to mention the ones already made (and ignored), and I would ask you to respond to these points. A discussion is not profitable if the points...aren't discussed. Ignoring them and going on to an "Oh yeah? What about..." argument isn't discussion.
He didn't mention the Rapture in His teachings, lol, it was a...Mystery. Go to Vine's or Strong's or anywhere and learn what "mystery" meant to that culture in that day. It was hidden knowledge kept secret...just like the MYstery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You are looking for something that isn't there. You are taking His teachings concerning His Return and mistakenly thinking you can equate this to the Doctrine of the Rapture. It might surprise you to learn that at this time the disciples were ignorant of the Mystery of the Gospel (John 20:9; Romans 16:25-27; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27), much less the Mystery of the Rapture. Both of which would not be revealed until revealed by the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven (1 Peter 1:10-12), the Comforter (John 7:38-39; John 16:7).
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2019 16:51:40 GMT
Not in the context that statement is made, which speaks to the spiritual Kingdom of God and the inability of man to inherit it by physical means.
What I pointed out is that at Christ's Return we see judgment of physically living unbelievers whose flesh will be feasted on by physical bords (as well as beasts).
No, that is one of the points I made: the Rapture is a resurrection of both the living and dead born again believers up to that point. And because this is the case at the Rapture we cannot view the "first resurrection" of the Tribulation Martyrs as the Rapture...because there would be no physical believers to produce the offspring that join ranks with Satan and are destroyed just prior to the passing away of this universe and the Great White Throne Judgment.
Not at all, and I have no idea, if you read what I said, how you could possibly come to that conclusion. It isn't something that can be implied in anything I said. If you feel that there is a case for that, please quote what it is.
These are unbelievers still in Hades (see Revelation 20:12-15). They are designated "dead" because they did not receive the Life Christ came to bestow on men. Something you may or may not be aware of is that only those who have been baptized into Christ have "life," and all others are "dead:"
John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
As mentioned in the last post the Rapture was, until Paul presented it, a mystery. So too was the Gospel of Christ. While many take the position that the Old Testament Saints were as "saved" as we are, the fact remains that no man received Eternal Life until the Comforter was sent and men were placed in Christ. Jew and Gentile were both made one in Christ, and this did not begin until Christ began baptizing men with the Holy Ghost.
Above we see that the "fathers" are said to be dead. This includes Moses. He ate of that bread which was the provision of that day but he was not privy to the Gospel. He was not trusting in the accomplished Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now were the disciples of Christ at that point (Mark 16:9-14; John 20:9). The Old Testament Saints were "saved" from an eternal perspective, however, they all died not receiving the very promises which served as a basis for their belief and faith (see Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40; Galatians 3:6-8; Ezekiel 36:24-27). They died still awaiting Christ's Redemption and their Reconciliation to God through the Atonement (see Hebrews 9:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19).
So "the rest of the dead" is a contrast to the deaths of the Tribulation Martyrs. Physical death is the focus because they were physically killed for refusing to worship Antichrist, but, we can still apply the principle of the distinction between those who have life in Christ and those who do not.
God bless.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2019 16:57:28 GMT
This was addressed to another poster but you know how I am...
First, there is no mention of "tithes" in this passage. Secondly, the topic of discussion is the Rapture. Third, Born Again Believers will never be under the Covenant of Law, so I am not sure why you would think the Law and its ordinances will be re-established for us.
Lastly, the only significance I see to the Sabbath in regards to Eschatological matters would be Israel's observance (and Israel only) in the Millennial Kingdom and it's foreshadowing of the final Millennium which is the Millennial Kingdom (and yes, I am a Young Earth Creationist, lol).
God bless.
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