|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2018 15:08:36 GMT
Again, sorry, but you are applying your doctrine improperly, and wresting the context of both passages.
First, that God's Work is truth and judgment and that all His commandments are sure are what stand fast for ever and ever. His works, Samuel, not the Law. The "Law" in Christ's statement is a reference to the Covenant of Law (from which we do not divorce the principles established in the Law), not commandments. And what you are not including in your understanding of what will not pass from the Law includes all Prophecy:
Matthew 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The Gospel of Christ was still a Mystery at this point, and the "Kingdom" relevant to Israel is of course the promised Restored Kingdom which we now know to be the Millennial Kingdom. And just to let you know, I am a Young Earth Creationist, and believe the world to be just under six thousand years old. When the Kingdom is established, according to the pattern of Creation, the Millennial Kingdom will be the "Sabbath" of Millennia. That is why your use of Hebrews 4 is in error, because 1) you do not realize that the "People of God" that are in view are the Nation of Israel (hence the title of the Epistle, because it written by a Hebrew to the Hebrew People) and 2) you completely miss the point in that he is saying "The 'rest' promised to you in physical terms, the Land of Canaan, was not the ultimate fulfillment of the 'Rest' God had in mind for you:"
Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV)
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The points to consider so far are...
1. "Let 'us,' the Hebrew People, fear, since there remained a promise to our people, lest we do not receive that Rest that remained." Note the "therefore," and what it is there for: Chapter 3 is a warning, using the example of those who had been promised rest who were unbelievers so did not enter into that rest (into the land).
2. The Gospel is being preached to the Hebrew People by the Writer and his associates, and he points out the "Gospel" was preached to those who fell in the wilderness due to unbelief. Now you have to understand that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to them, but, the promise of Rest is still the Gospel. We can understand it because we have a context in which to place it, that is, in having had revealed to us that Jesus Christ is that Rest. The good news they understood in that day was that God would bring them into their own land and they would have peace and prosperity. It was, like most of the Old Testament, provision in physical means, rather than eternal and spiritual. For example, they received manna, which sustained physical life, we receive the True Bread, which gives us eternal life. They were the "Vine" plucked up out of Egypt and planted in the land, Christ is the True Vine, and the means of relationship to God on an eternal basis, rather than through heritage (being born into Israel).
3. The Gospel, the good news they received...wasn't received with faith. They did not believe God, hence had no faith that He would fulfill His promise of rest unto them.
4. In v.3, he swings back to a present day inclusion in the "we." He is saying, "We who have believed (in the Gospel), as opposed to those who did not believe then...enter into that Rest which God ultimately meant for His People Israel."
5. God knew before He even created the world that He would save mankind through Jesus Christ. That does not mean we take statements such as a reference to "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" to mean that believers were eternally redeemed prior to Christ dying in man's stead, it simply speaks of God's foreknowledge and the consistency of His Redemptive Plan.
Next he writes...
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
The point is that there is a point at which time no more works are necessary. For God, in Creation, the example is the Seventh Day. For mankind, we have two "rests" in view, that which was promised on a physical basis (Canaan), and that which was spiritual and eternal, and accomplished through faith in Christ.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
There are still people entering into the Rest which is Christ. His point is, "Seeing that there are still those who need to enter in, and those in the wilderness did not enter in because of unbelief, I want to make it clear to you that if you are unbelieving you will not enter into the Rest of Christ if you also are unbelieving."
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
What he is saying here is that because David speaks of this (Psalm 95:7-8), it shows that the promise of rest still remains. In David's day he is saying "Don't harden your hearts as those who were unbelieving in the Wilderness."
He will now hammer home the point that the Rest promised by God was not fulfilled when Israel entered into the physical rest which was accomplished in the land of Canaan:
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
In other words, if Joshua (that is who is in view, not Jesus Christ), in bringing Israel into Canaan, could be viewed as the Promise being fulfilled in ultimate sense, then God would not have again spoken through David prophetically whereby He made it clear the Promise was not fulfilled ultimately, which is made clear in the next statement:
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Again, in view is the Hebrew People, to whom the Promise was given. To sum it up, the Writer is saying "The Rest God promised to our People (Israel) was not fulfilled ultimately when we entered into the Promised Land. There is still a Rest promised us, and so I warn you not to be unbelieving so you can enter into that Rest which is Christ. Do not harden your hearts as our fathers did, who did not have faith in the good news God gave them, but were unbelieving, and died without entering into that rest."
Continued...
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2018 15:26:46 GMT
A Facebook debater said:
2. God's commandments which was written by God's finger on the tablets were always there but the law of Moses which includes the sacrificial laws were written in a book were added because sin(breaking God's commandments) under this law of Moses sinner would kill animals as a sacrifice for their sins all this pointing to Christ who became the sacrifice for all or sins. After the death of Christ there was and there is no need for these laws anymore coz Christ the real thing had come.
Response:
Actually Paul speaks explicitly of the time when there was no Law:
Romans 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
He even speaks of those who did not have the Law, the Gentiles, during the Age of Law:
Acts 17:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
His point being that there is a distinction drawn between the Ages that preceded the Covenant of Law and this Age, the Age of Grace, or, the Church Age. Because He is Himself ministering directly to the hearts of men, revealing the truth of the Gospel through the Ministry of the Comforter, He is not overlooking ignorance, because no man will be able to claim ignorance. Even then Gentiles, who did not have the Law, received internal witness directly from God, and those who performed the works of the Law written on their hearts, being doers of the Law, rather than just hearers, were justified because they did God's will as revealed to their hearts. Those who did not were/are condemned:
Romans 2:12-16 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
You are correct that keeping the Covenant of Law is no longer necessary because we are in relationship to God through the True Vine, not through heritage (being of Israel) or by being proselytes to the religion of the Hebrew People (which was established by God). But, we are in relationship with God through the New Covenant and there is nothing in any instruction to the Church that states we are to keep the Sabbath. For the Jews, I don't have a problem with them worshiping on the Sabbath, because they are never told to forsake their heritage as a people, only that they are to forsake seeking to be in relationship through the Covenant of Law and to forsake seeking righteousness through the keeping of the Law, which they didn't do anyway. Which is why God promised the New Covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-36 King James Version (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Hebrews 8:7-13 King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
"In that He said a New Covenant will be established, and has been established through the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ...the Covenant of Law has been declared obsolete. It is no longer useful to men"
Sabbath keeping is an element of the Covenant of Law, not of the New Covenant. As I said, if you determine you must worship on the Sabbath, fine, do so, and do not violate your conscience, for if you do you sin. But, equally true is that you violate Christian principles taught by Paul when you demand others must keep the Sabbath.
Continued...
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2018 15:46:06 GMT
1. 7th day sabbath. It was instituted upon creation and it points to God as the creator. As long as God is still the creator this sabbath will always be there. It's also part of God's eternal commandments.
First, you might want to head your points thus:
1.
A.
B.
C.
Rather than...
1.
1.
2.
3.
Secondly, in view is Paul debating with the Jews, preaching the Gospel, and there is nothing in view that supports Sabbath keeping.:
Acts 17 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Likely this entails the Sabbath of three weeks. or, three Saturdays. Six times the word translated "days reasoned" is translated "dispute" in the KJV, so in view we have him basically debating with Jews who are still keeping the Law. He is preaching the Gospel, and in view is an attempt to have them "abide in Christ," rather than remaining in "the Vine" which was the means of relationship for men to God in the Age of Law. Now, relationship is to be through the True Vine, and we know that relationship with God can in all Ages be attributed to the Work of the Son of God.
Response: Christ has fulfilled the Law. That means that everything in the Law pointed to Christ, and Christ has made the type no longer necessary. H is our Rest, and this is spiritual, whereas the Sabbath was established that men might have physical rest:
Exodus 20:8-11 King James Version (KJV)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 16:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exodus 23:12
Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
All of God's laws were for man's benefit.
As to the Day of Atonement, this is a prime example of the differing administration of God, for we do not have to offer up sacrifice on a yearly basis, but instead memorialize the fulfillment of the example/type, and this through Communion. We could keep the Passover feast if we desired, but that too was a memorial, for God did not strike down the firstborn every year for those who didn't.
Continued...
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2018 16:05:02 GMT
A Facebook Debater said:
4. On romans 14 vs 5 the subject being addressed here is about judging other among new believers. You should only ask yourself this question. Do we worship God according to our opinions or another man's opinion or we worship God according to his word.
God surely see these days as different because He created them differently Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. We should worship according to his word not our opinions.
Sorry but that is not the subject being addressed:
Romans 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
In view is apparently dietary laws. Those who do not eat are those who are weak in faith. A newly saved Jew, for example, may have a problem eating that which was restricted in his former religion. Neither one are to judge the other, but they are to serve God according to their understanding, not violating their conscience thus becoming guilty of sin.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
In view are what men consider holy days. And the point Paul makes is "Don't presume to judge another."
And that is what you are doing. You violate specific commandment of an inspired Apostle, thus, you violate the commandment of Christ in demanding men keep the Sabbath.
A Facebook Debater said:
5. The bible says. Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
The sabbath is for the people of God and it remaineth(it is still to be observed)
As mentioned before, the "Rest" that remains is salvation in Christ, the ultimate fulfillment of what was only type in the Old Testament (Canaan).
The People of God in view are not Christians, but the same People given in the example in Chapter 3, and the same People the Writer is writing to, to whom the Covenant of Law (which they were progress from to the New Covenant) would have been relevant.
|
|
