Post by Admin on Sept 17, 2018 16:54:19 GMT
<<<<< Darrell Conner: If you propose men are saved then walk away then you are attributing salvific power to them. They have the power to end "eternal life."
Salvation is not something you participated in, it was given to you as a gift, just as these two posts are given to you as a gift. You will either accept them or reject them. When one becomes a partaker of the divine nature it is a reference to being born again, which is the result of the believer being immersed into God in Eternal Union. We have life we did not have when we were conceived and born, that is...the life of God which is the result of the Eternal Indwelling of God. >>>>>
Response: That is the point, Lorenzo: there is no slavific power effected by those who receive the gift. However, there is indeed salvific power effected by God when He bestows the Gift. Now, what you must also learn is how one is able to accept a gift. Is it because they go around and look for a gift? Not this Gift they don't, because they have no understanding of their condition and therefore are not seeking God or Christ.
Now, in regards to the point you are apparently not understanding, again, if you propose men can "walk away" from Christ then you attribute salvific power to them. They, rather than Christ, have the power to end the life they received when they were made partakers of the divine nature, or in other words, were eternally indwelt by God and placed in Him in eternal union.
Random Facebook Debater: We receive the gift by faith. Faith is not a work. Again, the Bible could not be clearer on that.
Response: Faith is an element, however, your works-based doctrine teaches men are saved by faith through grace, and men are not saved by faith through grace. You teach men are saved by faith thus if they lose faith they lose salvation. That is damnable demon doctrine espoused by those who do not know God or His Word or His salvation.
Men are saved by grace through faith, and that not of themselves...it is a gift. Now when you can find a passage that teaches God's grace expires or is determined by the faith of the unbeliever, who is inevitably going to be faithless at some point, then perhaps your doctrine might be considered Christian and Biblical Doctrine. Until then...
Random Facebook Debater: We are included in Christ by faith, at the point in time when believe. Eph 1:13.
Response: Included? I see that men are made partakers of the divine nature when they receive the Holy Ghost. And again, we are born again by the will of GOd, not by faith. You forget that long before faith arises the grace of God is being effected in the life of those who will partake of the divine nature.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: Just as we are included in Christ by faith, we remain in Christ by faith, which is STILL not a meritorious work.
Response: in point of fact it is. Show me where Scripture teaches men maintain their salvation by faith. I'll show you what Peter states as the reason men remain saved:
1 Peter 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
If Noah was kept by the power of God through the Ark, how much emphasis would we put on the Ark? It was a necessary aspect of Noah's salvation from the Flood, but it was God that kept him alive.
I cannot see anything more meritorious than remaining saved because one maintains their faith.
Your gospel is men are saved by faith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that men are saved by the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Born again by His will, as John also testifies:
John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Your doctrine denies the Word of God, making salvation a result of man's will.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: Eternal life is in Christ. If we do not abide in Christ, we no longer have eternal life.
Response: So let's think about the Lord's teaching in John 15, did the disciples abode in Christ after this? Hard to say they did, seeing not a single one of them was yet in Christ.
How does that impact your false doctrine? Does that reality mean anything to you?
Again, consider that the disciples were not even yet believing on Jesus Christ for their Eternal REdemption, Eternal Salvation, and Eternal Union with God through the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Does that impact the false doctrine you are teaching? Here is a clear statement that is irrefutable that shows the disciples were yet in need of being in Christ:
Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Let that sink in a little and then we will continue to consider John 15.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater:Precisely what Jesus warned true believers about in John 15:1-6.
Response: So, since Peter did not abide in Christ, we must, according to your doctrine, state he walked away from salvation when he denied he knew Christ, right? Can you see what a caricature of Christ you are presenting? OF course not.
Now, let me ask you a question: what is the "vine" that is not the True Vine? What do we contrast the True Vine with?
Psalm 80:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Random Facebook Debater:Christ's own words. Not a hypothetical warning.
The answer is that Israel was "the vine." If you had asked a first century Jew what or who the vine was, they would have immediately said "Israel." The concept being presented here is that until this time Israel had relationship with God through her heritage. What Christ is stating is that from henceforth He was the "Vine," the True Vine by which they, and all men would have relationship with God through.
Now, here is what your doctrine lacks: it would not be until the disciples were baptized into Christ, that is, baptized with the Holy Ghost, that is, immersed into Christ in Eternal Union that they would abide in Him.
Do you understand your error yet, Lorenzo? Do you understand that the Lord is pointing towards the decision that would soon be made by Jews? Hebrews is replete with this same issue, Jews making a decision for Christ and the New Covenant over the Covenant of Law and the heritage that they knew was given them by God.
If you can grasp this then you will soon learn why men are saved by grace through faith, rather than the doctrine you bring, which is that men are saved by faith through grace, and why there is a significant difference.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: A genuine warning to genuine believers about a genuine danger.
Response: Sorry, no. The Disciples were not "genuine believers." Please read your Bible and understand it before going onto a public forum to teach false doctrine.
The disciples were not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel, and could not therefore place their faith in Christ unto Eternal Redemption.
Here is another passage to show that the disciples were not yet born again believes abiding in Christ:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
If you will take the time to understand the Lord's teaching here you will see that He is speaking of the day that is to come when they will be in Him and He in them. Understand that no man not having the Spirit of God can be said to be "saved" in an eternal perspective. In other words, though these men are men of faith, they are not placing their faith in Christ as they would when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost and became privy to the Gospel.
So I would like to know how it is that you can consider those who are not trusting in faith...genuine believers?
Oh, that's right, your false doctrine is based on that false premise, which is arrived at through ignorance of the Word of God. And I will show you that in every proof text you seek to use to teach your Secular Humanism you will see that in view are, just as in this instance, those who are not genuine believers.
No need to. I have only to show you what Scripture actually teaches. If you can set aside the indoctrination into damnable heresy and pay attention you might just learn something. And the hope, Lorenzo, in not mincing words with you is that you will pay attention.
God bless.
Salvation is not something you participated in, it was given to you as a gift, just as these two posts are given to you as a gift. You will either accept them or reject them. When one becomes a partaker of the divine nature it is a reference to being born again, which is the result of the believer being immersed into God in Eternal Union. We have life we did not have when we were conceived and born, that is...the life of God which is the result of the Eternal Indwelling of God. >>>>>
Random Facebook Debater: Nonense. There is no salvific power in accepting a gift.
Response: That is the point, Lorenzo: there is no slavific power effected by those who receive the gift. However, there is indeed salvific power effected by God when He bestows the Gift. Now, what you must also learn is how one is able to accept a gift. Is it because they go around and look for a gift? Not this Gift they don't, because they have no understanding of their condition and therefore are not seeking God or Christ.
Now, in regards to the point you are apparently not understanding, again, if you propose men can "walk away" from Christ then you attribute salvific power to them. They, rather than Christ, have the power to end the life they received when they were made partakers of the divine nature, or in other words, were eternally indwelt by God and placed in Him in eternal union.
Random Facebook Debater: We receive the gift by faith. Faith is not a work. Again, the Bible could not be clearer on that.
Response: Faith is an element, however, your works-based doctrine teaches men are saved by faith through grace, and men are not saved by faith through grace. You teach men are saved by faith thus if they lose faith they lose salvation. That is damnable demon doctrine espoused by those who do not know God or His Word or His salvation.
Men are saved by grace through faith, and that not of themselves...it is a gift. Now when you can find a passage that teaches God's grace expires or is determined by the faith of the unbeliever, who is inevitably going to be faithless at some point, then perhaps your doctrine might be considered Christian and Biblical Doctrine. Until then...
Random Facebook Debater: We are included in Christ by faith, at the point in time when believe. Eph 1:13.
Response: Included? I see that men are made partakers of the divine nature when they receive the Holy Ghost. And again, we are born again by the will of GOd, not by faith. You forget that long before faith arises the grace of God is being effected in the life of those who will partake of the divine nature.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: Just as we are included in Christ by faith, we remain in Christ by faith, which is STILL not a meritorious work.
Response: in point of fact it is. Show me where Scripture teaches men maintain their salvation by faith. I'll show you what Peter states as the reason men remain saved:
1 Peter 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
If Noah was kept by the power of God through the Ark, how much emphasis would we put on the Ark? It was a necessary aspect of Noah's salvation from the Flood, but it was God that kept him alive.
I cannot see anything more meritorious than remaining saved because one maintains their faith.
Your gospel is men are saved by faith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that men are saved by the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Born again by His will, as John also testifies:
John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Your doctrine denies the Word of God, making salvation a result of man's will.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: Eternal life is in Christ. If we do not abide in Christ, we no longer have eternal life.
Response: So let's think about the Lord's teaching in John 15, did the disciples abode in Christ after this? Hard to say they did, seeing not a single one of them was yet in Christ.
How does that impact your false doctrine? Does that reality mean anything to you?
Again, consider that the disciples were not even yet believing on Jesus Christ for their Eternal REdemption, Eternal Salvation, and Eternal Union with God through the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Does that impact the false doctrine you are teaching? Here is a clear statement that is irrefutable that shows the disciples were yet in need of being in Christ:
Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Let that sink in a little and then we will continue to consider John 15.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater:Precisely what Jesus warned true believers about in John 15:1-6.
Response: So, since Peter did not abide in Christ, we must, according to your doctrine, state he walked away from salvation when he denied he knew Christ, right? Can you see what a caricature of Christ you are presenting? OF course not.
Now, let me ask you a question: what is the "vine" that is not the True Vine? What do we contrast the True Vine with?
Psalm 80:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Random Facebook Debater:Christ's own words. Not a hypothetical warning.
The answer is that Israel was "the vine." If you had asked a first century Jew what or who the vine was, they would have immediately said "Israel." The concept being presented here is that until this time Israel had relationship with God through her heritage. What Christ is stating is that from henceforth He was the "Vine," the True Vine by which they, and all men would have relationship with God through.
Now, here is what your doctrine lacks: it would not be until the disciples were baptized into Christ, that is, baptized with the Holy Ghost, that is, immersed into Christ in Eternal Union that they would abide in Him.
Do you understand your error yet, Lorenzo? Do you understand that the Lord is pointing towards the decision that would soon be made by Jews? Hebrews is replete with this same issue, Jews making a decision for Christ and the New Covenant over the Covenant of Law and the heritage that they knew was given them by God.
If you can grasp this then you will soon learn why men are saved by grace through faith, rather than the doctrine you bring, which is that men are saved by faith through grace, and why there is a significant difference.
Continued...
Random Facebook Debater: A genuine warning to genuine believers about a genuine danger.
Response: Sorry, no. The Disciples were not "genuine believers." Please read your Bible and understand it before going onto a public forum to teach false doctrine.
The disciples were not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel, and could not therefore place their faith in Christ unto Eternal Redemption.
Here is another passage to show that the disciples were not yet born again believes abiding in Christ:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
If you will take the time to understand the Lord's teaching here you will see that He is speaking of the day that is to come when they will be in Him and He in them. Understand that no man not having the Spirit of God can be said to be "saved" in an eternal perspective. In other words, though these men are men of faith, they are not placing their faith in Christ as they would when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost and became privy to the Gospel.
So I would like to know how it is that you can consider those who are not trusting in faith...genuine believers?
Oh, that's right, your false doctrine is based on that false premise, which is arrived at through ignorance of the Word of God. And I will show you that in every proof text you seek to use to teach your Secular Humanism you will see that in view are, just as in this instance, those who are not genuine believers.
Random Facebook Debater:You can't explain it away.
No need to. I have only to show you what Scripture actually teaches. If you can set aside the indoctrination into damnable heresy and pay attention you might just learn something. And the hope, Lorenzo, in not mincing words with you is that you will pay attention.
God bless.
It is because you reject the teachings of Christ and teach a works-based salvation that you are lost. Now, if you want to get over being lost in this discussion, pay attention: You ultimately teach a humanistic religious gospel when you teach men maintain their salvation. It doesn't matter that you say "...only Christ saves," Mormons will say that as well when they seek to creep in unawares and convert those who, like you, sim ply do not understand the Gospel of Christ.